MERGED --> Impeachment Tour + Mother of US Soldier Vows To Follow Bush Around

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FizzingWhizzbees said:


China has adopted American-style capitalism? Are you kidding? Tariffs in the region of 10 percent, restrictions on internal migration and trade between provinces, the contribution made by TVEs to economic growth, bailing out SOEs with state-owned banks, the virtual absence of a fully functioning legal system - China is not a capitalist country. Depending on your perspective, China may be converging with western models of capitalism or following a different path entirely, but the fact remains that describing the country today as capitalist is wrong.

And as for your claim about the standard of living improving - in many areas China's standard of living has declined since 1978. In the Maoist era you saw an increase in life expectancy from c. 40 years in 1949 up to c. 69 years in 1976 -- the improvement has stagnated (and by some accounts, actually been reversed) since 1978. Millions of people, particularly in rural areas, no longer have access to healthcare as governments in the reform era have abandoned the policy of providing low-cost healthcare to the masses. Millions of children (particularly girls) no longer receive an education because families cannot afford the school fees introduced in the reform era. Standard of living cannot be determined on the basis of GDP data (or any opulence indicators) alone -- you also need to consider whether a country's increased wealth has been put to good use in terms of improving the population's quality of life.

That China is a country moving towards western style capitalism is a fact that is generally accepted worldwide by experts, academics, government officials and most of all corporations. Most would describe China today as a country with a capitalist economy as opposed to a Soviet Style Command economy.

As for standard of living, China in 1975 had a standard of living that was less than Zimbabwe. Today China's overall standard of living is close to Turkey's or The Philippines. Standard of living as determined by the human development index is NOT determined by GDP data alone! Average Life Expectancy in China is now 71, the highest it has ever been in the countries history. China is still a developing country, but its clear that the move toward a more market oriented economy has benifited the country as a whole greatly. Most people in China would be horrified if you suggested a return to the Maoist era.
 
dazzlingamy said:
BAH!

Do you think America will ever view whats happening "outside" of their own fence as important as inside?

Do I care that a soldier, who went willingly to Iraq to invade a country, who was trained to withstand warfare, who (along with his family) have at least SOME expectation he could die as he was FIGHTING IN A WAR :huh: died "in the line of duty"
Well truth be told not really. I feel for his family, but when you sign up to be a soldier, you are accepting death as a part of your job and for that, your country is thankful.

What i feel sorry for is a country of innocent people who's lives have been SHATTERED beyond compare, in which nearly every inhabidant knows someone who has been killed because of this senseless war, in which the usa "smart bombs" still can land over a km from their target onto a residential part, or a school or something equally as naiive, not realisng that this day would be their last.

All this hoohaa over some woman who lost her soldier son in a war they shouldn't have gone too in the first place. He had a choice, he could have disagreed with it and not going and faced whatever consequences there are. The iraqi's didn't have one.

I wonder what its like, to be sleeping in bed and suddenly you're whole world goes quiet because you've been left deaf from the sounds of explosions raining down around you. Did they know they were going to be invaded, are they happy not having any water, electricity, safety, schools to go to, work to go to, but at least saddam isn't there torturing them anymoe! *rolls eyes*
Its this that keeps me up at night. While everyone fights semantics from their comftoable chairs around a plush boardroom, or from the cosy comfort of their computer room, innocent men women and children are dying at the hands of a clumsy, under trained hard ass militia of scary groups opposed to the invasion and the us army. Who both act exactly the same, giving the people or Iraq no where to turn.

pathetic.

If you take a look at the history of Iraqi people under Saddam prior to the coalition invasion of 2003, you'll find they were not living in a paradise. Guess how many Iraqi's were killed in the Iran/Iraq War? Guess how many Iraqi's were murdered by one of Saddam's 12 different security agencies? Thats right, 12 different security agencies, more than even Hitler had. There are Iraqi's who were opposed to the coalition removal of Saddam along with the anti-war left around the world. These Iraqi's were apart of Saddam's regime or were Saddam loyalist and they form the corp of the resistence force that continues to attack Americans and Iraqi's in four of its eighteen provinces.

On January 30, 2005, 8 million Iraqi's got up that morning and voted in the first free election in decades. Such an event would not have been possible if Saddam was still in power. Such an event showed that the people of Iraq strongly support the coalition and its efforts to build a brighter future in Iraq even if others do not.
 
Teta040 said:
Hey, A_Wanderer: Do you feel compassion for the millions of innocent victims still living under dictators just as bad or even worse than Saddam's, but have not had the benefit of our enlightning troops?

The only reason we chose this particular country for "democratization" (read: colonization) was the oil reserves. Why else are we spending hundereds of billions of dollars we don't have? When has the USA ever volunteered to bankrupt its treasury in pursuit of an ideal? (The American Revolution, Lincoln bankrupting the Federal Treasury to keep the Union together doesn't count. WWII doesn't count either, since we didn't enter that war until we were attacked.)

Well, insuring the security of the energy reserves insures that there will be a future in which the world will be able to help dismantle other repressive dictatorships or governments through out the world. Seizure or Sabotage of the planets main energy reserves would create a global economic disaster that would insure that the planets wealthiest countries would be unable to help the third world in any way.
 
Teta040 said:
When I say "doesn't count" I am strictly giving acadmic examples. In the Revolution, we weren't a country yet, just a scattering of loosely held together provinces. We weren't "America" yet. And if you've ever done some serious reading about the Revolution and its aftermath, it was a long, tedious, messy business, with lots of warring factions and the Founding Fathers doubting the whole thing would ever work. We don't like to focus on 1783, it;s far easier to talk about the easy stuff in 1776. Revolutions are alwys exciting, but it's the aftermath that's more important,

No, I am talking about Realpolitik, which is the way nations conduct business. Barring extrordinary circumstances like civil wars or being attacked by foreign powers, the bulk of US policy is done in terms of self-interest. Like other countries. Even the US commitment to Israel would not be such if the State Dept didn't see some practical benfit from the relationship. They don't just see it Biblical terms. I am not naieve enough to believe that. And before you say anything, the "being attacked by foreign powers" argument doesn't work as regards Iraq and 9/11, b/c of course we were NOT attacked by Iraq on 9/11. We were attacked by upper-middle class anti-Royal Family Saudis who are using America to carry on a fued with the current ruling branch of the al-Saud family. Namely, al-Queda.

Has anybody started a "Constitution Watch" type thread in the War area? Shoukd I keep it in the War forum or should I do it here? I'm reading a lot on the American Revolution and its aftermath right now and would like to have a discussion on the birth of democracy vis a vis Iraq. Of course, we are not attempting to start a democracy in Iraq, but a colony; nor do we really want democracy in the ME...but that's for another thread....

Were attempting to start a colony in Iraq? Do you consider Germany, Japan, South Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo to be American colonies?
 
STING2 said:
That China is a country moving towards western style capitalism is a fact that is generally accepted worldwide by experts, academics, government officials and most of all corporations. Most would describe China today as a country with a capitalist economy as opposed to a Soviet Style Command economy.

Can you not accept that there is something between an economy under full central planning (ie the USSR, China between approximately 1958 and 1978) and capitalism? No academic would seriously argue that China remains a planned economy, but many argue that China today is far from a western-style capitalist economy and its economic growth is not attributable to convergence with capitalist economies - I'm thinking of academics like Barry Naughton, Peter Nolan, Thomas Rawski.

You didn't address any of the specific points I raised about ways in which China is not a capitalist country -- how do you account for the contribution made by TVEs if China is purely capitalist? What about the absence of a fully-functioning legaly system - many academics take it as axiomatic that the development of a legal system is necessarily prior to the adoption of capitalism. Wht about the high tariffs? What about the lack of an integrated national market as provinces restrict internal trade?


As for standard of living, China in 1975 had a standard of living that was less than Zimbabwe. Today China's overall standard of living is close to Turkey's or The Philippines. Standard of living as determined by the human development index is NOT determined by GDP data alone! Average Life Expectancy in China is now 71, the highest it has ever been in the countries history. China is still a developing country, but its clear that the move toward a more market oriented economy has benifited the country as a whole greatly. Most people in China would be horrified if you suggested a return to the Maoist era.

Firstly, can you cite your source for the statistics about standard of living. What is ignored in your comment about life expectancy in China is that the bulk of improvement in life expectancy took place during the Maoist era -- there are undoubtedly reasons to criticise the Maoist era, but we should also recognise its successes and a huge increase in life expectancy is one of those successes.

And as I said above -- China's economic reform has had clear benefits, economic growth of c. 9% per year being one of them. But you completely ignore the costs of reform -- abandoning the policy of barefoot doctors has left millions without healthcare, introducing fees for schools has denied millions an education, the retreat of the state has led to the resurgence of phenomena such as prostitution and criminal gangs, the one-child policy has led to the kidnapping of girls to be sold as wives to men unable to find a wife...I could go on, but those are just a few examples to illustrate the problem.

Finally, when did I say China should return to the Maoist era? I said we need to recognise the achievements of Maoism, which in many cases have served as a base for post-1978 reform. Beyond that, all I've argued is it is misleading to claim China has adopted capitalism and fail to consider the continued existence of non-capitalist institutions, and the way in which China's development since 1978 has taken a path very different to the one frequently expected from planned economies in a transition to a capitalist economy.
 
No, STING 2, those countries are not, because the first 2 attacked us, the third has no oil, the fourth was "invaded" by the United Nations (like Iraq sould have been), the fifth was a purely humanitarian mssion to stop the whole province form losing its entire population within 10 days, and ditto, it had no oil. A colony is a place that we one day decide to wake up and invade, and exploit, alone and without anyone else's help, for ecomonic purposes.

Kiddies: I've started a historical thread for the Iraq Constitution..but I told them there and I'l tell you here...EVRYONE..Go watch the DVD of "Lwrence of Arabia'" this wknd..Iraq is rightout of the headlines from that film....
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:


Can you not accept that there is something between an economy under full central planning (ie the USSR, China between approximately 1958 and 1978) and capitalism? No academic would seriously argue that China remains a planned economy, but many argue that China today is far from a western-style capitalist economy and its economic growth is not attributable to convergence with capitalist economies - I'm thinking of academics like Barry Naughton, Peter Nolan, Thomas Rawski.

You didn't address any of the specific points I raised about ways in which China is not a capitalist country -- how do you account for the contribution made by TVEs if China is purely capitalist? What about the absence of a fully-functioning legaly system - many academics take it as axiomatic that the development of a legal system is necessarily prior to the adoption of capitalism. Wht about the high tariffs? What about the lack of an integrated national market as provinces restrict internal trade?




Firstly, can you cite your source for the statistics about standard of living. What is ignored in your comment about life expectancy in China is that the bulk of improvement in life expectancy took place during the Maoist era -- there are undoubtedly reasons to criticise the Maoist era, but we should also recognise its successes and a huge increase in life expectancy is one of those successes.

And as I said above -- China's economic reform has had clear benefits, economic growth of c. 9% per year being one of them. But you completely ignore the costs of reform -- abandoning the policy of barefoot doctors has left millions without healthcare, introducing fees for schools has denied millions an education, the retreat of the state has led to the resurgence of phenomena such as prostitution and criminal gangs, the one-child policy has led to the kidnapping of girls to be sold as wives to men unable to find a wife...I could go on, but those are just a few examples to illustrate the problem.

Finally, when did I say China should return to the Maoist era? I said we need to recognise the achievements of Maoism, which in many cases have served as a base for post-1978 reform. Beyond that, all I've argued is it is misleading to claim China has adopted capitalism and fail to consider the continued existence of non-capitalist institutions, and the way in which China's development since 1978 has taken a path very different to the one frequently expected from planned economies in a transition to a capitalist economy.

I never said that China was purely a capitalist economy, but it is more of a capitalist economy than a Soviet command economy. China is a developing country that still has strong state involvement in the economy, but this is gradually being decreased.

http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/index_indicators.cfm

The above link is the source for my statistics about standard of living. Many would attribute the increase in life expectancy during the Maosist era to be primarily because of the absence of war. Undoubtedly, the effects of 20 years of brutal war in which millions of Chinese people were killed had an enormous negative effect on life expectancy and it was only natural that there would be a sharp rise in life expectancy following the end of such a long period of brutal conflict.

Every country has problems, even a country with the highest standard of living in the world, Norway. But everyone knows that China's moves towards western style capitalism have been a net positive rather than a net negative for the country as a whole. It will take years or decades to fix or absorb the current problems, but by continuing on the path towards a market oriented economy like that found in the west will help to continue the improvement in the overall standard of living of the people, just has it has been doing for the past 25 years.

If Maoism was the success you claim it is, China would not have needed to pursue the major reforms it has instituted over the past 25 years. I just recently saw a documentary that showed Chinese students and newly employed young people in their 20s, life during the Maoist era and the people were stunned at how different life was in China only 30 years ago before it began its move towards capitalism.

One more thing, if Hong Kong is taken by itself, it has the 3rd highest life expectancy on the planet with only Japan and Sweden ahead of it. No matter what you have to say about the Maoist era, it clearly was not responsible for that. That fact of course has not gone unoticed by the Chinese government.
 
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Teta040 said:
No, STING 2, those countries are not, because the first 2 attacked us, the third has no oil, the fourth was "invaded" by the United Nations (like Iraq sould have been), the fifth was a purely humanitarian mssion to stop the whole province form losing its entire population within 10 days, and ditto, it had no oil. A colony is a place that we one day decide to wake up and invade, and exploit, alone and without anyone else's help, for ecomonic purposes.

Kiddies: I've started a historical thread for the Iraq Constitution..but I told them there and I'l tell you here...EVRYONE..Go watch the DVD of "Lwrence of Arabia'" this wknd..Iraq is rightout of the headlines from that film....

Japan attacked the United States on December 7, 1941 , on what date did Germany attack the United States? So the #1 requirement in being a colony is having oil? How much oil did the 13 colonies have?

Bosnia was not invaded by the United Nations. As a matter of fact, there was not even a UN resolution authorizing military action in Bosnia. Once again in Kosovo, no UN resolution authorizing the use of force there.

But in Iraq, there were THREE UN Security Council resolutions authorizing the use of military force, resolutions 678, 687, and 1441. In addition, since the start of the occupation in May of 2003, there has been THREE more UN Security Council resolutions authorizing the occupation starting with resolution 1483!

Iraq is no more a colony of the United States than Germany and Japan were in the 1940s and 1950s or Bosnia and Kosovo are today.
 
STING2 said:
Many would attribute the increase in life expectancy during the Maosist era to be primarily because of the absence of war. Undoubtedly, the effects of 20 years of brutal war in which millions of Chinese people were killed had an enormous negative effect on life expectancy and it was only natural that there would be a sharp rise in life expectancy following the end of such a long period of brutal conflict.

But what this fails to take into account is the fact that China's life expectancy was extremely low (according to some sources as low as the mid-twenties) at the turn of the twentieth century. Certainly there was some unrest in China in the nineteenth century (the Taiping rebellion, for instance) but there was no widespread disorder until after the collapse of the Qing dynasty in 1911/1912. Even after that, the country wasn't embroiled in civil war (despite some fighting between warlords and the KMT) and the beginning of the Sino-Japanese war is normally regarded as 1937.

Attributing the increase in life expectancy purely to the absence of war also raises the question of why there was no corresponding increase in life expectancy in countries at a similar level of development - India, for example, where life expectancy hovered around the mid-fifties while Chinese life expectancy had reached almost seventy years.

It will take years or decades to fix or absorb the current problems, but by continuing on the path towards a market oriented economy like that found in the west will help to continue the improvement in the overall standard of living of the people, just has it has been doing for the past 25 years.

Why are you disregarding the examples I gave of a decline in the standard of living in some areas? Access to healthcare in rural areas has been reduced. Access to education, particularly for girls, has decreased. There has been a resurgence of problems such as prostitution and criminal gangs.

No, this doesn't necessarily mean China's reform policies have been unsuccessful, but it does raise questions about whether it's acceptable to sacrifice such things as healthcare or education in order to pursue high economic growth.

If Maoism was the success you claim it is, China would not have needed to pursue the major reforms it has instituted over the past 25 years. I just recently saw a documentary that showed Chinese students and newly employed young people in their 20s, life during the Maoist era and the people were stunned at how different life was in China only 30 years ago before it began its move towards capitalism.

I don't think Maoism was a huge success overall, and in fact problems like inefficient SOEs, a lack of incentives, and the almost inevitable problems with centrally planned economies were some of the reasons for the CCP's decision to adopt a policy of economic reform (although we also need to understand the decision to adopt reformist policies in the context of political developments in the mid-1970s - ie the death of Mao, the end of the Cultural Revolution, etc). I do, however, think that the Maoist era witnessed some remarkable achievements - life expectancy shot up, infant mortality decreased, access to healthcare and education was expanded, illiteracy decreased, Many of those achievements have served as a base for post-1978 China's remarkable economic growth and we should recognise that. It's very easy for people to reject off-hand the idea that Maoism was in anyway successful simply because they're uncomfortable with the idea that socialist policies can be beneficial, but we should focus on the facts instead of hiding behind ideology and the fact remains that Maoism did have some successes which should be recognised.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
She had to leave Texas because her Mother had a stroke, she seems to be having so much trouble so I just wish the best for her.

I would hope everyone, whether they agree with her opinions and actions or not, can agree with this. :up:
 
Andrew Johnson was the one who was impeached-due in part to Radical Republicans in Congress.

Teta, there is little or no proof that the US went into Iraq for oil-however, I suppose blind partisanship leads to a somewhat limted vision. Iraq a colony? I'm sorry but nothing points to that at all. Also, the US did not go in there alone.
 
Of course, Ft Worth Frog, nothing publicly points to that conclusion. Bush has done a VERY good job of diverting public attention from the dubious and questionable activities of such luminaries as Halliburton and Kellogg, Brown and Root, from the nation's attention. He has very successfully invented the fabrication of "democratic nation building" as a purpose in invading Iraq. Outwardly, we seem to be trying to do it, and the Iraqi people tragically believe in it too, wait until they learn the truth, when they find they're no freer in the international spere, and still have little rights--Why didn't he initially come out and say, right from Day One, that we are in Iraq to build democracy there? Why the lies about the WMD's? Did he think that we would not love supporting such a noble cause as nation building, esp as we have enthusiastically done so before? Or was it b/c that was never the real intention, and at the time he could think of nothing else that would galvanize our support?

The only public buildings the US has consistently guarded from Day One are the governmental complexes and the Oil Ministry. Such facts as these were much remarke don in 2003 but seemed to get lost in the constant media drumbeat of "democracy, democracy." I've said it before and I'll say it again: the only kind of "democracy" we want to build is a nation with a heavy-handed, pro-American puppet gov't that can keep the lid on its volatile and unpredictable "man in the street" (which generally tends to be anti-American, in the Moslem world--this is why we weren't greeted as heroes) while the US puts in place an apparatus with which to exploit to the maximum its natural rescources. Namely, its oil. When we speak of "which party gets to control the oil" with regards to the Constitution, that is a sham. What we really mean is, 'Which party gets the hallowed privalege of staffing and working the wells whose largesse goes not to a strong, independent, Iraq which is the politcal equal of is, but instead mostly to us." The ideal we are striving for is NOT Japan or Germany but a milder version of Saudi Arabia. We were quite happy in the 1950's to let the autocratic and despotic al-Saud family consolidate its power while the employees of U.S. Oil Giant Aramco lived in isolated luxurious compounds and carried out their work while the not giving a damn about the local population. That was the way BOTH parties wanted and continue to want it. Bush's and Cheney's cronies live in the same type luxurious walled compounds. And the American employees of these companies get 10 times better health care and benefits than their Iraqi staff. Nobody can possibly be as bad as the al-Saud branch of the Royal Family, but we want an semi-autocratic gov't that will have no real true independent power (if it did, it would have the power to criticize our corporate actions there and limit corporate prescence ands military actions, much as Japan was able to throw out the Portugese Jesuits who controlled the Japanese silk trade in the early 1600's) and would not be able to confront us is, for example, in the future they think we are taking too much oil.

Democracies are fluid, unpredictable things. But they are democracies and equal to us, and when they make decisions we don't like, or say things to us we don't like, there's not a damed thing we can do about it. Except diplomatic protests, maybe a tarriff or two, etc. When France criticized our decision to go to war, did we send in 20,000 troops to make sure Chriac behaved himself, changed his tune, and continued to export the same French products to America in the same volume? ? No. There was media bashing and some boycotts, and that was it.

Tell me: If a"democratic" Iraq turned around 20 yrs from now and decided that the US was getting a bit too much of its oil, ot the amount that was being exported had to be drastically reduced to meet domestic needs, due to pressure from the public, who felt the US was getting too much, and they wanted to pressure us by closing the miltary base on the Euphrates, would we just be content to do some media bashing and light boycotts? Would we accept Iraq as an equal, as we accept France, ("Damn , there' nothing we can do, excoet boycott or slap down some tariffs") OR would we threaten to send in the troops and in fact do it, just to safeguard our continued oil supply, bypassing regualar channels of diplomatic communication like the UN, feeling it was out exclsuive right and privalege, as Iraq's "liberator" , to do so? Would we thus feel it was our right to treat Iraq like a child that must be "disciplined" by its parent, whne it gets "too uppity", and NOT as an adult we are having an argument with, and is therefore "undisciplinable", since it outgrew us long ago, and which we just have to learn to live with?

I doubt it. I think we will always see Iraq as our child, to do with as we please, regardless of who or what her government is, and regardless of input or advice or action from others. THAT , folks, is my defenition of a colony. To feel we have a right to "control" a place. Which I am sure Bush feels America should have.

As for the "Resolutions"..the first 3 were pre-2003, aftermaths of 1990. They were the loosly cited "precidents" looselt interpreted to got war. Tonkin all over again....The last ones were done by the UN b/c it had no choice. It wasn't "You were right to do this, you have authorization to conquer and occupt Iraq." It wasm "well, we have no choice at this point, sunce you're obviously not getting out." But do resolutions s like this have any real power, are they morally advisable? Say tomorrow China decided to attack Japan to revenge itslef for WWII. After the war goers on 3 months, and the UN reluctantly passes resolutions saying it agrees,since it can't stop it, does it really agree? Does an "After the fact" resolution have legitimacy? we may as well accept the law of the jungle. BUT we still went into Iraq alone, agaisnt the wishes of the entire world. The foreing troops stilwith us are under the command of US officers, NOT their own, and that is a crucial difference. Neither are the under the command of UN personnel, which truly consitutues an "inernational" force. With regards to Bosnia" : "Invaded" was perhpas the worng word. What I meant was that the UNited Nations eventually got involved and passed a globally-supported resolaution authorizung the use of a body UN peacekppers ans troops made up of troops sefing under US commanders, to go in and keep the peace. And Kosovo, yes, had no UN mandate, but you have to remember that this was an extremely rare case when SOMETHING had to be IMMEDIATELY, within days, or a genocidal situation was at hand. Do you remember what happened in Kosovo? Radovan Kadic, Milosovh's chief henchman, decided to continue to try for his "greater Serbia" by literally forcing out the entire Bosnian Moslem population of the province out at gunpoint. They were being force dout fo their towns and herded to the borders, where Serb miltary forced them to surrended their passports and ID, this renoucing clains on land and property. And htis was being done in a real time of DAYS and HOURS. NOT weeks and months, like in Rwanda or Darfur. I remember the news Special Reports on TV. "Peter, how many more people have crossed the border in the last 24 hours?" "Um, unconfimrned reports say another 500,000 since yesterday afternoon.They have no food, no water..." And so on. And Europe was doing not a damed thing. THis initelsf was nothing new but the FANTASTIC SPEED with which events unfolded WAS. Clearly Clinton felt guilty aoubt Rwanda and decided "not again." Bush would have ingnored Rwanda too (hey African ,livces are worth less after all), but he would have ignored Kosovo too....

IN the meantime, while we wait for Cindy's mother to stabilize (strokes are hell, my aunt had two of them....God bless both or them and the family...pray for them, .I hope this will help the Sheehan family to a temporary truce if not some reconcoilation..and if some nutjob even DARES to suggest this is Divine payback to Cindy--I wouldn't pu tit past some wackos out there, I don't mean posters on here..well, I hope they get what they wish on her).

Here are the artickes..which I think shoukd be required reaidng for all following this conflict.

The first one I had a problem linking with. It has been up since August 12 and already shows signs of becoming a classic article. Henry Kissinger weigns in on Iraq. "Lessons For An Exit Strategy." You need to register at the Washingotn Post website ,it;s quick and free, only a couple of bozes to fill in, and you'll find it in the "most Emiled Articles" box. Could domeone PLEASE post the whole thing on here, I don't know how to do this.

KIssinger talks of international solutions. Ha. I'm sure he means the UN. When the UN is borught in to keep the peace, THEN I'll know the US is sincere. But I don't think Bush wants the rest of the world to have any poitical say in dealing with Iraq--like IT will.


The second article's title says it all: "Philadelphia 1789 Vs Baghdad 2005." It's along scholarly contrast in COnstitutional situations. This link does work.
www.Slate.com/id/2124691?nav=wp

I hope someone can print this too. People tend not to comment on linked articles, and these are ome OF THE best american writing on Iraq, IMO.
 
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the noble cause

ayatollah's are dancing under their robes


U.S. concedes ground to Islamists on Iraqi law

Sat Aug 20, 2005 01:33 PM ET

By Luke Baker and Michael Georgy

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. diplomats have conceded ground to Islamists on the role of religion in Iraq, negotiators said on Saturday as they raced to meet a 48-hour deadline to draft a constitution under intense U.S. pressure.

U.S. diplomats, who have insisted the constitution must enshrine ideals of equal rights and democracy, declined comment.

Shi'ite, Sunni and Kurdish negotiators all said there was accord on a bigger role for Islamic law than Iraq had before.

But a secular Kurdish politician said Kurds opposed making Islam "the," not "a," main source of law -- changing current wording -- and subjecting all legislation to a religious test.

"We understand the Americans have sided with the Shi'ites," he said. "It's shocking. It doesn't fit American values. They have spent so much blood and money here, only to back the creation of an Islamist state ... I can't believe that's what the Americans really want or what the American people want."
 
Yeah..I'm waiting for Monday, like everyone else. Here's hoping the document will be online by Teus....
See,s to me we are following the British legacy in Saudi Arabia...we care not who or what we support, just anything that is designed to control the populace...
 
Since I'm technologically impaired...another great article to post, A Wanderer...

Militias Hold Sway in Iraqi North and South"

Can you print this up here for me? The Wash Post is writing some REALLY great stuff these days....
 
Teta040 said:
Yeah..I'm waiting for Monday, like everyone else. Here's hoping the document will be online by Teus....
See,s to me we are following the British legacy in Saudi Arabia...we care not who or what we support, just anything that is designed to control the populace...
If we are so hell bent on creating a compliant dictatorship then why wasn't Ahmed Chalabi stuck in charge immediately? or why did we even go to war for that matter, the US could have gotten sanctions dropped, Saddam could have come in from the cold and then they could buy as much oil as needed?
 
A_Wanderer said:
If we are so hell bent on creating a compliant dictatorship then why wasn't Ahmed Chalabi stuck in charge immediately? or why did we even go to war for that matter, the US could have gotten sanctions dropped, Saddam could have come in from the cold and then they could buy as much oil as needed?

Well that just does not fit the picture frame now does it?

:wink:
 
Which was probably what would have been followed if Saddam hadn't become unreliable and invade Kuwait (another country all about oil). The US had to stop Saddam there, if they hadn't there would have been the possibility of a war in Saudi-Arabia next. From then on, business with Iraq was impossible, and it became necessary to remove him. Bush sr. couldn't do it, due to massive pressure.
Then there was hope the people of Iraq would topple Saddam themselves, but the dictatorship was too strong and ruthless for that.
When it took too for the Iraquis to oust Saddam Bush jr. came in to finish the job, leaving the US with an ally in Kuwait, Saudi-Arabia AND Iraq, thus gaining control over a large part of the oil reserves in the world.
Great plan. Well, it would have been if it weren't for all those dead people. And yes, in the end this IS about oil.
 
gorgeous article by Frank Rich on all this Crawford, TX goings-ons ...




August 21, 2005
The Swift Boating of Cindy Sheehan
By FRANK RICH
CINDY SHEEHAN couldn't have picked a more apt date to begin the vigil that ambushed a president: Aug. 6 was the fourth anniversary of that fateful 2001 Crawford vacation day when George W. Bush responded to an intelligence briefing titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States" by going fishing. On this Aug. 6 the president was no less determined to shrug off bad news. Though 14 marine reservists had been killed days earlier by a roadside bomb in Haditha, his national radio address that morning made no mention of Iraq. Once again Mr. Bush was in his bubble, ensuring that he wouldn't see Ms. Sheehan coming. So it goes with a president who hasn't foreseen any of the setbacks in the war he fabricated against an enemy who did not attack inside the United States in 2001.

When these setbacks happen in Iraq itself, the administration punts. But when they happen at home, there's a game plan. Once Ms. Sheehan could no longer be ignored, the Swift Boating began. Character assassination is the Karl Rove tactic of choice, eagerly mimicked by his media surrogates, whenever the White House is confronted by a critic who challenges it on matters of war. The Swift Boating is especially vicious if the critic has more battle scars than a president who connived to serve stateside and a vice president who had "other priorities" during Vietnam.

The most prominent smear victims have been Bush political opponents with heroic Vietnam résumés: John McCain, Max Cleland, John Kerry. But the list of past targets stretches from the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke to Specialist Thomas Wilson, the grunt who publicly challenged Donald Rumsfeld about inadequately armored vehicles last December. The assault on the whistle-blower Joseph Wilson - the diplomat described by the first President Bush as "courageous" and "a true American hero" for confronting Saddam to save American hostages in 1991 - was so toxic it may yet send its perpetrators to jail.

True to form, the attack on Cindy Sheehan surfaced early on Fox News, where she was immediately labeled a "crackpot" by Fred Barnes. The right-wing blogosphere quickly spread tales of her divorce, her angry Republican in-laws, her supposed political flip-flops, her incendiary sloganeering and her association with known ticket-stub-carrying attendees of "Fahrenheit 9/11." Rush Limbaugh went so far as to declare that Ms. Sheehan's "story is nothing more than forged documents - there's nothing about it that's real."

But this time the Swift Boating failed, utterly, and that failure is yet another revealing historical marker in this summer's collapse of political support for the Iraq war.

When the Bush mob attacks critics like Ms. Sheehan, its highest priority is to change the subject. If we talk about Richard Clarke's character, then we stop talking about the administration's pre-9/11 inattentiveness to terrorism. If Thomas Wilson is trashed as an insubordinate plant of the "liberal media," we forget the Pentagon's abysmal failure to give our troops adequate armor (a failure that persists today, eight months after he spoke up). If we focus on Joseph Wilson's wife, we lose the big picture of how the administration twisted intelligence to gin up the threat of Saddam's nonexistent W.M.D.'s.

The hope this time was that we'd change the subject to Cindy Sheehan's "wacko" rhetoric and the opportunistic left-wing groups that have attached themselves to her like barnacles. That way we would forget about her dead son. But if much of the 24/7 media has taken the bait, much of the public has not.

The backdrops against which Ms. Sheehan stands - both that of Mr. Bush's what-me-worry vacation and that of Iraq itself - are perfectly synergistic with her message of unequal sacrifice and fruitless carnage. Her point would endure even if the messenger were shot by a gun-waving Crawford hothead or she never returned to Texas from her ailing mother's bedside or the president folded the media circus by actually meeting with her.

The public knows that what matters this time is Casey Sheehan's story, not the mother who symbolizes it. Cindy Sheehan's bashers, you'll notice, almost never tell her son's story. They are afraid to go there because this young man's life and death encapsulate not just the noble intentions of those who went to fight this war but also the hubris, incompetence and recklessness of those who gave the marching orders.

Specialist Sheehan was both literally and figuratively an Eagle Scout: a church group leader and honor student whose desire to serve his country drove him to enlist before 9/11, in 2000. He died with six other soldiers on a rescue mission in Sadr City on April 4, 2004, at the age of 24, the week after four American security workers had been mutilated in Falluja and two weeks after he arrived in Iraq. This was almost a year after the president had declared the end of "major combat operations" from the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln.

According to the account of the battle by John F. Burns in The Times, the insurgents who slaughtered Specialist Sheehan and his cohort were militiamen loyal to Moktada al-Sadr, the anti-American Shiite cleric. The Americans probably didn't stand a chance. As Mr. Burns reported, members of "the new Iraqi-trained police and civil defense force" abandoned their posts at checkpoints and police stations "almost as soon as the militiamen appeared with their weapons, leaving the militiamen in unchallenged control."

Yet in the month before Casey Sheehan's death, Mr. Rumsfeld typically went out of his way to inflate the size and prowess of these Iraqi security forces, claiming in successive interviews that there were "over 200,000 Iraqis that have been trained and equipped" and that they were "out on the front line taking the brunt of the violence." We'll have to wait for historians to tell us whether this and all the other Rumsfeld propaganda came about because he was lied to by subordinates or lying to himself or lying to us or some combination thereof.

As The Times reported last month, even now, more than a year later, a declassified Pentagon assessment puts the total count of Iraqi troops and police officers at 171,500, with only "a small number" able to fight insurgents without American assistance. As for Moktada al-Sadr, he remains as much a player as ever in the new "democratic" Iraq. He controls one of the larger blocs in the National Assembly. His loyalists may have been responsible for last month's apparently vengeful murder of Steven Vincent, the American freelance journalist who wrote in The Times that Mr. Sadr's followers had infiltrated Basra's politics and police force.

Casey Sheehan's death in Iraq could not be more representative of the war's mismanagement and failure, but it is hardly singular. Another mother who has journeyed to Crawford, Celeste Zappala, wrote last Sunday in New York's Daily News of how her son, Sgt. Sherwood Baker, was also killed in April 2004 - in Baghdad, where he was providing security for the Iraq Survey Group, which was charged with looking for W.M.D.'s "well beyond the admission by David Kay that they didn't exist."

As Ms. Zappala noted with rage, her son's death came only a few weeks after Mr. Bush regaled the Radio and Television Correspondents' Association banquet in Washington with a scripted comedy routine featuring photos of him pretending to look for W.M.D.'s in the Oval Office. "We'd like to know if he still finds humor in the fabrications that justified the war that killed my son," Ms. Zappala wrote. (Perhaps so: surely it was a joke that one of the emissaries Mr. Bush sent to Cindy Sheehan in Crawford was Stephen Hadley, the national security adviser who took responsibility for allowing the 16 errant words about doomsday uranium into the president's prewar State of the Union speech.)

Mr. Bush's stand-up shtick for the Beltway press corps wasn't some aberration; it was part of the White House's political plan for keeping the home front cool. America was to yuk it up, party on and spend its tax cuts heedlessly while the sacrifice of an inadequately manned all-volunteer army in Iraq was kept out of most Americans' sight and minds. This is why the Pentagon issued a directive at the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom forbidding news coverage of "deceased military personnel returning to or departing from" air bases. It's why Mr. Bush, unlike Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter, has not attended funeral services for the military dead. It's why January's presidential inauguration, though nominally dedicated to the troops, was a gilded $40 million jamboree at which the word Iraq was banished from the Inaugural Address.

THIS summer in Crawford, the White House went to this playbook once too often. When Mr. Bush's motorcade left a grieving mother in the dust to speed on to a fund-raiser, that was one fat-cat party too far. The strategy of fighting a war without shared national sacrifice has at last backfired, just as the strategy of Swift Boating the war's critics has reached its Waterloo before Patrick Fitzgerald's grand jury in Washington. The 24/7 cable and Web attack dogs can keep on sliming Cindy Sheehan. The president can keep trying to ration the photos of flag-draped caskets. But this White House no longer has any more control over the insurgency at home than it does over the one in Iraq.
 
We'll know that, Irvine, if the WHite Hoise fails next month in its most successful scandal-scaring tactic: diverting public attention by inventing another great news stary to take media attention away. If Cindy is still big news after the Supreme COurt hearings, I'll eat my shoes.

The reason we didn't promote Chalbi was he didn't behave the way he was supposed to. He didn't let us control him when he set foot on Iraqi soil in the summer of 2003. He began enoucraging the growth of homegrown political parties. There was just this swirl of democratci activity in the early days. He also was a fan of Ayatolah Sistani, who was pushing for a democratci process. Democray wasn't a big theme in the early days of the war. SO, Chalabi was "in disgrace" by Washington. Later on, whwn Iraq prove dmore difficlt to pacify, Bush realized he neded an inpriational figure Iraqis could rally around, so now they're Chalbi is back in thier good graces. Unfortunately, Chalabi I am sure feels betrayed by Bush, when his democratic revoluation was shut down, he rightly sees throguh the sham...and orodnary Iraqis who are still pro-American after Abu Gharib don't trust him now that he was in disgrace.

And yes..it IS about the oil....
 
Cindy Sheehan has NOT in my opinion been SWIFT BOATED.....

If you are going to step into the limelight, expect to be looked at under a microscope.

I have looked at enough transcripts of her speeches and who she has surrounded herself by over the past year to believe that she is USING her son, right or wrong.

I think this article pretty much sheds light on her, and is pretty much close to my opinion of her.....and IF you think the Boston Globe is part of Rove's machine....good luck to you....

[Q]The Cindy Sheehan you don't know
By Cathy Young, Globe Columnist | August 22, 2005

IT IS ENORMOUSLY difficult to say anything critical about Cindy Sheehan, the Everymom of the antiwar movement, without sounding indecently callous. She is, after all, a woman who has lost her child -- one of humankind's most universal images of grief. Her vigil outside President Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas, where she has vowed to stay until the president meets with her and hears her out, has inspired great sympathy. Conservative attempts to make an issue of Sheehan's far-left ties have been cited as an example of how low those abominable right-wingers will to stoop: They'll even slime a grieving mother.

I respect Sheehan's pain, no doubt compounded by her mother's stroke last week. Yet Sheehan is not simply expressing her pain and rage, privately or even publicly; when she turns her grief into a political cause, her politics cannot remain off-limits.

Sheehan's first and foremost demand is that all American troops be brought home from Iraq immediately. On this scale, irrationality becomes dangerous. Even many of those who opposed the war in Iraq from the start are convinced that a quick pullout would be a disaster -- both for the Iraqis, and for all those who would suffer if Iraq became a fully operational terrorist base. Who will have to give account to the bereaved men and women whose loved ones will be killed as a result?

But there's more than that to Sheehan's politics. She is not simply against the war in Iraq (and, as she told talk show host Chris Matthews on CNBC, against the war in Afghanistan as well). She has thrown in her lot with the hardcore Michael Moore left, and this less savory aspect of her crusade has been largely ignored by the respectful media.

In her public appearances, Sheehan has not only called Bush ''the biggest terrorist in the world" but suggested that his ''band of neocons" deliberately allowed the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 to happen: ''9/11 was their Pearl Harbor to get their neo-con agenda through," she told a cheering crowd at San Francisco State University last April.

That crowd, by the way, was holding a rally in support of Lynne Stewart, a radical New York attorney convicted in 2003 of aiding and abetting a terrorist conspiracy. Sheehan compared Stewart -- who served as a liaison between her incarcerated client, terrorist mastermind Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, and his network outside -- to Atticus Finch, the lawyer in ''To Kill a Mockingbird" who heroically defends a black man falsely accused of raping a white woman in the Jim Crow South.

Even more troubling opinions have surfaced in an e-mail Sheehan sent to ABC News last April: ''Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC [Project for the New American Century, a neoconservative think thank] Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel."

After some media outlets publicized these comments, which smack of blaming the Jews for drawing the U.S. into the war in Iraq, Sheehan disavowed them: she claims the offending lines were inserted into her email by an ABC News staffer. (The original email has been lost due to an Internet virus attack.) But this latest conspiracy-mongering is hard to believe, especially given the general anti-Israel tenor of Sheehan's public statements: for instance, she railed against the notion that ''it's okay for Israel to have nuclear weapons, but Iran or Syria better not get nuclear weapons."

A comment on the left-wing website Daily Kos described Sheehan as ''Terri Schiavo reincarnated." I believe this was meant as a compliment. But actually, the Sheehan circus has a lot in common with the Schiavo circus, none of it good. Both stories represent a triumph -- on different sides of the political divide -- of emotion- and sentiment-driven politics. Schiavo's parents could go off on paranoid, crazy, vitriolic rants, and enjoy a certain immunity by virtue of their unthinkable tragedy. The same is true of Sheehan.

Sheehan's grief entitles her to sympathy, which is why I believe the president should have granted her the meeting she wanted. (On pragmatic grounds, it would have also taken the sting out of Sheehan's protest.) But her loss does not give her, as New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd has claimed, an ''absolute" moral authority -- any more than it would if her reaction to her son's death was to demand a US nuclear strike against the insurgents.
[/Q]
 
Dreadsox said:
Cindy Sheehan has NOT in my opinion been SWIFT BOATED.....

If you are going to step into the limelight, expect to be looked at under a microscope.[/Q]

You're still singing from the same old hymn sheet, and frankly you're starting to look a little ridiculous. Her motives, whether noble or not, are not really particularly of significance at this point.

Looking at the broader issue, even Fox commentators are lashing the new Iraqi constitution.

FOX commentators questioning the President's policy, for heaven's sakes.
 
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Dread: does it matter what she thinks were the real motivations for the war?

the woman's son is dead, she is protesting and asking questions peacefully and respectfully, and she's winning. an anti-war movement is coalescing right around her right at the moment when public opinion is turning against Iraq and especially against Bush's handling of the war.

think of her what you like; it doesn't change the fact that the war is going badly, and even Sen. Hegel (a republican) is itching for an exit strategy.

she's won.
 
Irvine511 said:
Dread: does it matter what she thinks were the real motivations for the war?

the woman's son is dead, she is protesting and asking questions peacefully and respectfully, and she's winning. an anti-war movement is coalescing right around her right at the moment when public opinion is turning against Iraq and especially against Bush's handling of the war.

think of her what you like; it doesn't change the fact that the war is going badly, and even Sen. Hegel (a republican) is itching for an exit strategy.

she's won.

I am still itching for a proper ENTRY strategy....

I do not find her respectful...I find her rhetoric over the past year to be so severe...I do not care who the President is, I would not want the President to meet her.

Has she been respectful in Crawford, sure. The media is now paying attention.

Has she been respectful over the year? No.

Has she respected the father who has asked that she take down his son's cross at camp Casey? NO

Sen. Hagel, I respect. That does not give her a legitimate claim to meet with the President.
 
i know we're all shocked (shocked!) that Cindy Sheehan has political views; that she dares to question the president; that she might not have a political and moral philosphy that isn't in lockstep with the Republican party; that she (shock, horror) meets with people who support her; that she knows how to work the media; that she holds views that somehow make her pain and sorrow illegitimate.

well, so did someone else:





Gary Younge
Monday August 22, 2005
The Guardian


The myth of Rosa Parks is well known. The tired seamstress who boarded a bus in Montgomery, Alabama, in December 1955 and refused to give up her seat to a white man has become one of the most enduring legends of the civil rights era. Her subsequent arrest started the bus boycott that launched the civil rights movement. It transformed the apartheid of America's southern states from a local idiosyncrasy to an international scandal and turned a previously unknown 26-year-old preacher, Martin Luther King, into a household name.

"She was a victim of both the forces of history and the forces of destiny," said King. "She had been tracked down by the zeitgeist - the spirit of the times." The reality was somewhat different. Parks was no victim. The zeitgeist did not track her down; she embodied it. She had a long history of anti-racist activism and had often been thrown off buses for resisting segregation. Far from being a meek lady in need of a foot massage she was a keen supporter of Malcolm X, who never fully embraced King's strategy of non-violence.
"To call Rosa Parks a poor, tired seamstress and not talk about her role as a community leader and civil rights activist as well, is to turn an organised struggle for freedom into a personal act of frustration," writes Herbert Kohl in his book She Would Not Be Moved."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1553870,00.html





i'm not saying that she's Rosa Parks. not yet anyway.
 
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