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Old 09-21-2005, 06:40 PM   #226
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"I was raised in a country by a public school system that taught us that America was good, that America was just. America has been killing people... since we first stepped on this continent; we have been responsible for death and destruction. I passed on that bulls**t to my son, and my son enlisted. I'm going all over the country telling moms this country is not worth dying for."
- Cindy Sheehan
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Old 09-21-2005, 06:49 PM   #227
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Saying it's bullshit and hate are two different things.

You don't have to agree and love everything about America to live here.

I think Ashlee Simpson's singing is bullshit, but I don't hate her.
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:46 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Saying it's bullshit and hate are two different things.

You don't have to agree and love everything about America to live here.

I think Ashlee Simpson's singing is bullshit, but I don't hate her.
Anyways, she said it all right here.

"America has been killing people... since we first stepped on this continent"

"I'm going all over the country telling moms this country is not worth dying for."


I'm surprised you missed it. Maybe the lib elite from the New York Times failed to report anything that would possibly make her sound like a madwoman.

If not hatred, then flat out loathe and contempt for sure. You don't have to defend this woman if you don't want to. All she's doing is degrading her son's bravery and death, while making an ass of herself in the process. Yep, America hater alright.
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:59 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Anyways, she said it all right here.

"America has been killing people... since we first stepped on this continent"

"I'm going all over the country telling moms this country is not worth dying for."


I'm surprised you missed it. Maybe the lib elite from the New York Times failed to report anything that would possibly make her sound like a madwoman.

If not hatred, then flat out loathe and contempt for sure. You don't have to defend this woman if you don't want to. All she's doing is degrading her son's bravery and death, while making an ass of herself in the process. Yep, America hater alright.
I don't agree with her comments, but this is the difference between you and I, I am capable of defending somone I disagree with. She has every right to say what she's saying and still she has not said she hates this country. This country does have a lot of blood on it's hands, this is truth doesn't mean I hate the country. "Not worth dying for" in this current war, I agree with her, doesn't mean I hate this country.

And seriously Mac, quit with the "lib elite" bullshit it's getting really old.
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:24 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I don't agree with her comments, but this is the difference between you and I, I am capable of defending somone I disagree with. She has every right to say what she's saying and still she has not said she hates this country. This country does have a lot of blood on it's hands, this is truth doesn't mean I hate the country. "Not worth dying for" in this current war, I agree with her, doesn't mean I hate this country.
I'm not calling for the Sedition Act to throw this woman in jail, and she has the right to say what has been said. Just as I have the right to question her logic. I admit we've had diplomatic failures in the past, but who hasn't? I will however expose a radical agitator who doesn't seem to realize how fortunate she is to live in a free country, which could not have been established without its people standing up for themselves and giving the ultimate sacrifice so that we can decide as ordinary people what is best for our society.

She couldn’t have dishonored her son any worse than playing the “dying in vain” card. She couldn’t have dishonored her country any worse than harping that America isn’t worth dying for, that America is unjust, that all America has been doing is killing people since the time we first settled on this land. Does she not realize what she is saying? I don’t think she does. How about what she is doing? Hatemongering, demoralizing the troops, and constantly undermining her son’s bravery and willingness to serve and die for his country. Most sickeningly, she’s never had so much fun in her life! What, you don’t believe me? She smiled as she was arrested, so don’t tell me she’s not a tragedy pimp. She enjoys any publicity she can get, and any opportunity given to her to attack those who know that there is no noble cause more worthy of sacrifice than freedom and democracy. If freedom isn’t worth defending, you tell me what is.

No deed can be higher than dying for your loved ones. Her propaganda to leave our duties of protecting and expanding the free world is dangerous, as is her assistance from Ramsey Clark, George Galloway, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and all the other irrationalists who want to abandon our duties of establishing a peaceful and free society in Iraq.

We are not living in a time of peace. We aren't responsible for the Jihad that has been declared upon us by the islamofascists. We are however responsible for preserving our very survival, as well as standing up to the world's most dangerous oppressors. How do we win the peace? Peace talks with the Anthrax Mafia is out of the question. We must eliminate those who want us converted, killed, or both. There is a synchronicity between this conflict and the conflict we faced as allied nations during World War II. If we haven’t fought that war, most of us wouldn’t have been born, while the rest of us would be speaking German and kissing Hitler’s right foot. We were attacked on Pearl Harbor, and the people of America answered the call of defense for their very survival. We didn’t want to get involved, but we had to. The same situation existed after 9/11, when New York, Washington DC, and Pennsylvania were attacked, we saw our civilization under attack, and nothing could be said to pacify our hateful enemies. Back to World War II, which we almost lost by the way, we fought what would be considered a sickeningly politically incorrect and illegal war by the anti-war lobby in this country. Harry Truman couldn’t have made a tougher call in his time than to develop the most advanced weapons of his time before our enemies did, and use them against our enemies before they could use them against us. He didn’t enjoy bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki, he didn’t enjoy killing Japanese people, but he did what he had to do to force our enemies to surrender. Yes, it was a tragedy that we had to resolve our conflict by killing so many innocent people, but what other alternatives did we have?

I don’t believe for one second that freedom is free. Our fathers poured oceans of blood, sweat, and tears to liberate themselves from tyranny, whether it’s eighteenth century Britain, whether it’s the Confederate Army, whether it’s Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, or WWII-era Japan. Freedom has never been free, and it never will be. Peace is never achieved without taking arms against those who want you annihilated from existence, who want you molded into a sandscarf, who want to rape your wife, and who want Allah to give them seven virgins as a reward for their evildoings. If we leave Iraq right now, it will become a greater global threat to every nation in existence, free or not. The entire country could be turned into a factory for terrorism and death camps. It will not only mean three years of risking our lives to establish a democracy, but it will mean that nations will be overtaken by islamofascists and millions of innocent people will be ruthlessly murdered by every last rotten throat-cutter in the Middle East.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
And seriously Mac, quit with the "lib elite" bullshit it's getting really old.
I will inform others on what doesn't make the headlines, thank you very much.
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:30 PM   #231
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I'm going all over the country telling moms this country is not worth dying for."
- Cindy Sheehan
There was a time when love and respect of country meant something. How quickly we forget those who did step up to the plate and died for this country.
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:42 PM   #232
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I have really held back from posting some of the things I have read that she has said.

I posted a link to the radio interview....which I felt she sounded reasonable at times, but, scary at others.
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Old 09-28-2005, 11:51 AM   #233
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


There was a time when love and respect of country meant something. How quickly we forget those who did step up to the plate and died for this country.


or, maybe, this country was once worth dying for; but given the current adventures this country is undertaking, it is no longer worth dying for under these circumstances and for these leaders.

i'll tell you right now: i would have marched over to Europe and fought Hitler with all my might if it were 1943.

there is no way i'd ever, ever die -- or would want anyone i loved to die -- in the sands of Iraq or Afghanistan.
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Old 09-28-2005, 04:03 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




or, maybe, this country was once worth dying for; but given the current adventures this country is undertaking, it is no longer worth dying for under these circumstances and for these leaders.

i'll tell you right now: i would have marched over to Europe and fought Hitler with all my might if it were 1943.

there is no way i'd ever, ever die -- or would want anyone i loved to die -- in the sands of Iraq or Afghanistan.
I think it's safe to say that Tom Brokaw won't be call calling this generation "The Greatest Generation."
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Old 09-28-2005, 04:29 PM   #235
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe


I will inform others on what doesn't make the headlines, thank you very much.
You can inform us of any kind of information you want, even the stuff we've heard over and over, it's just the condescending tone that because I don't agree with you means I have read the same things as you is old. Plus it just really weakens your arguments. The whining just distracts from anything you say sometimes.
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Old 10-03-2005, 06:36 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i'll tell you right now: i would have marched over to Europe and fought Hitler with all my might if it were 1943.
I would like to know why you think that Islamic terrorism is not a threat worth taking on.
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Old 10-03-2005, 06:58 PM   #237
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I would like to know why you think that Islamic terrorism is not a threat worth taking on.

There was no 'islamic terrorism' in Iraq until Bush/Blair/Howard invaded it.
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Old 10-03-2005, 07:07 PM   #238
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Originally posted by financeguy
There was no 'islamic terrorism' in Iraq until Bush/Blair/Howard invaded it.
1. Saddam Hussein’s government supported terrorism by paying "bonuses" of up to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers.
2. Saddam Hussein’s government supported terrorism by paying "bonuses" of up to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. Eleven Israelies were murdered while 52 were wounded. A little over three months after that carnage, Mrs. Khaldiya Isma’il Abd al-Aziz al-Hurani collected a check for $25,000 as a bonus for her son’s suicide and his homicide of nearly a dozen others. The following check was a “President Saddam Hussein’s Grant” paid via the Palestine Investment Bank. These funds were transferred on June 23, 2002.
3. Usama Muhammad Id Bahr and Nabil Mahmud Jamil Halbiyyah blew themselves up in Jerusalem's Zion Square on December 1, 2001. Before setting off to "martyrdom," they also left a car bomb set on a timer two blocks away. It exploded just as rescue workers and emergency personnel arrived on the scene. Alas, the human toll was far more severe, what with 11 deaths and 188 injuries. The only people who benefitted from this barbarism were the relatives of these two bombers who received President Saddam Hussein Grants here, as well.
4. In addition to funds, Saddam Hussein's government provided diplomatic help to Islamic extremists. This is Abu Abbas, former secretary general of the Palestine Liberation Front. He masterminded the October 7-9, 1985 hijacking of an Italian cruise ship whose name, sadly, is now synonymous with terrorism. The Achille Lauro was on a voyage across the Mediterranean when four Palestinian terrorists seized it on the high seas. They held some 400 passengers hostage for 44 hours.

And that, for now, concludes Saddam's welfare handouts for terrorists and their families. Thank you.
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Old 10-03-2005, 07:20 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




or, maybe, this country was once worth dying for; but given the current adventures this country is undertaking, it is no longer worth dying for under these circumstances and for these leaders.

i'll tell you right now: i would have marched over to Europe and fought Hitler with all my might if it were 1943.

there is no way i'd ever, ever die -- or would want anyone i loved to die -- in the sands of Iraq or Afghanistan.
Maybe the mood has changed, however I don't think you can really say this was a better country to live in in the 1940s, at least not if you were a Japanese-American or an African-American in the South. Maybe it has to do with post-Vietnam mistrust, I honestly have no idea. It's interesting you say that the war in Afghanistan isn't something you think is worth fighting for either, considering this was pre-Iraq war and right after 9/11. Seeing 3000 of your countrymen killed on TV is a pretty strong emotional image, imo. The unity seems to have disintegrated, but I do think there was a similar spirit of "love of country" after that.

If being the "greatest generation" means lots of kids dying, then I'd rather not be it. It's not like WW2 was really anything noble on our part; we liberated the Jews about as much as Lincoln freed the slaves. All you have to do is look at the immigration figures...

Anyway, I do think there is less of a naive "we can do it" culture these days, but I don't think it's really because it's a worse place to live at all. Personally, there's almost nothing I would go to war for. Not because I don't think there are things worth fighting for, but because I'm selfish and as hard as I try to be a good agnostic, death scares the shit out of me.
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Old 10-03-2005, 07:24 PM   #240
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Originally posted by financeguy



There was no 'islamic terrorism' in Iraq until Bush/Blair/Howard invaded it.
A lot of people seem to convienently forget that.

There was state terror however, which I suppose was more tribal than sectarian?
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