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Old 03-25-2003, 05:58 AM   #106
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Diamond;

He is?

I have been trying to get information on where he stands in all this, but without succes, and I figured since he supported the action taken in Afghanistan (though, granted, so did I) and given his beliefs in protecting New York (he is particularly patriotic about that city that is quite dear to him - notice how 90 % of his movies are always in New York) and the 'homeland', I would have thought he'd be supporting this war.

Just goes to show, you're right Diamond, some people you can't typecast.

Oh, and thanks U2FReAk, I know I would have been a tad annoyed. Just a tad, mind you. By the way, speedracer and U2FReAk and any other person I have wronged with my abhorrent crime of editing instead of replying, I know what is wrong with me now and with the support of my fellow Mods, I shall beat this disease.

Oh, and by the way, just when you thought I couldn't highjack this thread anymore, I would just like to add that Mr. Martin Scorsese ROCKS! I know I was booing when the Academy overlooked him, again. To quote a fellow liberal, shame on you, Academy, SHAME ON YOU!


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Old 03-25-2003, 09:25 AM   #107
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Yeah I heard him say he opposed the Iraq invasion about a month ago
shortly thereafter Bono came out too.

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Old 03-25-2003, 10:41 AM   #108
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Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways
As for anti-war protesters out there...I'd like for them to take the advice of one of the father's of a fallen serviceman, Spend your time helping the needy or picking up litter, not protesting.
Interesting personal observation: On Saturday they had antiwar protestors on the busy corner near the mall and pro-war supporters at the other corner. Later that day when I was coming back from running errands I noticed that there was trash near the pro-war area and none near the antiwar area.

This means there was trash in both areas and the protestors picked their area up.

OR there was no trash in either area and only the supporters left their trash behind.

OR there was no trash near the protestors and they didn't create any and there WAS trash near the supporters and they didn't notice or didn't care enough to pick it up.

Guess that means the protestors are able to be both antiwar and environmentalists.
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Old 03-25-2003, 01:26 PM   #109
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let me rephrase once again to try to calm the bitterness...

my suggestion to mr. moore was that if he has such a problem with a nation that allows him to runneth his over-run yapper, perhaps he should try a nice chateu' on the river seine... or maybe a nice abode in downtown baghdad, so he can learn to appreciate what he has more. in my anger over the situation, that comment boiled over into "get the fuck out."

i have no tolerance for people who blaim everything on the government. talk to an iraqi-american about what it was like living under saddam's government. talk to my friend edin about what it was like living under milosevic.

the thing with supporting bush as commander-in-chief has nothing to do with supporting his policies. the united states military are the defenders of our freedom, and the head of that military is the commander-in-chief... the president. in my opinion, it's like rooting for a sports team. i'm a huge new york knicks fan. i think the player decisions they've made are horrendous, and the coach and general manager need to go. but when it's game time, i put that aside and i root for my team. if you don't want to support your team, well maybe you shouldn't be a fan of that team then. the troops are our team and the commander-in-cheif is our coach. we're at war, and wether you agree with the policies or the decision making, all americans should support their team. supporting the president as commander-in-cheif in no says that you support his policies, domestic or foreign. it says that you support him to make sure the right decisions militarily to insure the quick and safe return of our troops.

i fully support the right of the anti-war protesters to protest... but i believe them to be extremely selfish. huge protests like the one held here in new york the other day are a massive security risk. it diverts police attention away from other more neccesary projects, it causes extreme traffic problems, and presents a very attractive "soft-target" to someone who might want to take out a few thousand americans quite quickly.

i appologize for presenting my opinions in a less than civil manner... i tend to rant uncontrolably for a few days after being set off by idiotic blowhards like michael moore.
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Old 03-25-2003, 02:35 PM   #110
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Headache, thank you for your calm and carefully articulated response, but I have a couple of comments/questions.

Quote:
my suggestion to mr. moore was that if he has such a problem with a nation that allows him to runneth his over-run yapper, perhaps he should try a nice chateu' on the river seine
This sentence summons up in a nutshell what this argument is all about imo. Michael Moore does not have a problem with the nation....he has a problem with the WAR! He wants to stay in his own nation, while expressing his displeasure with what its leader is doing.

I liked your analogy with the team, but what would you say if your commander in chief got you in a war over something else that you ABSOLUTELY did not agree with...suppose he wanted to use nuclear weapons or invade another country, or who knows what...something you abhorred. Can you honestly say you would still pretend to agree with it for the sake of appearances? Supporting a coach that has runined everything you loved about the team in the first place?

Here is my analogy...The National Ballet's artistic director decides to do a season of nothing but really crappy modern ballets. I would always love the Ballet company, and would continue to support it financially and defend its artistic director (the commander in chief)'s freedom to program his artistic vision. But there is no way in hell I am buying a ticket to see something I don't want to see, and I will definitely express my displeasure at this programming. Because I am a supporter and have a strong stake in the company's future, I have a vested interest to express my displeasure with how it is being run, but that doesn't mean I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. I don't want to attend another company in another city, I want to express my opinion to the Director how I feel, regardless of whether I will be listened to or not.

That probably doesn't make any sense to you guys out there (except maybe Sweetest Thing LOL!)....just rambling.

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Old 03-25-2003, 02:46 PM   #111
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Really quick everyone - we're heading back into civility, which is great

Let's try to keep everything in the remainder of this thread civil, otherwise this thread is going to be closed.

Just a bit of forewarning there.
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Old 03-25-2003, 02:54 PM   #112
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Michael Moore and civility?? OK, I'll play nice.
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Old 03-25-2003, 02:59 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways


Okay, if you are making a commment about the service men who have been KIA you are a sick S.O.B. That is not funny or witty.
I just want to clarify this cause I guess I missed it yesterday and it is directed at me. I'm not trying to stir anything up by commenting on this....

I was absolutely not commenting on that. I was referring to the comment made that France has openings for people who don't like what's going on. If you read the couple of posts before this I think you will see that I was paraphrasing what someone else said.
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Old 03-25-2003, 05:03 PM   #114
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Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
Headache, thank you for your calm and carefully articulated response, but I have a couple of comments/questions.



This sentence summons up in a nutshell what this argument is all about imo. Michael Moore does not have a problem with the nation....he has a problem with the WAR! He wants to stay in his own nation, while expressing his displeasure with what its leader is doing.

I liked your analogy with the team, but what would you say if your commander in chief got you in a war over something else that you ABSOLUTELY did not agree with...suppose he wanted to use nuclear weapons or invade another country, or who knows what...something you abhorred. Can you honestly say you would still pretend to agree with it for the sake of appearances? Supporting a coach that has runined everything you loved about the team in the first place?

Here is my analogy...The National Ballet's artistic director decides to do a season of nothing but really crappy modern ballets. I would always love the Ballet company, and would continue to support it financially and defend its artistic director (the commander in chief)'s freedom to program his artistic vision. But there is no way in hell I am buying a ticket to see something I don't want to see, and I will definitely express my displeasure at this programming. Because I am a supporter and have a strong stake in the company's future, I have a vested interest to express my displeasure with how it is being run, but that doesn't mean I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. I don't want to attend another company in another city, I want to express my opinion to the Director how I feel, regardless of whether I will be listened to or not.

That probably doesn't make any sense to you guys out there (except maybe Sweetest Thing LOL!)....just rambling.

With all do respect, Mr. Moore ALWAYS seems to have some sort of problem with the government... I suppose that's his right, but perhaps if he spent some time living under a different type of government he wouldn't be quite as upset all the time with our government. Allow me to present some quotes made by Mr. Moore himself...

Michael Moore on 9/11
"Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes' destination of California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!"

Michael Moore on why Elian Gonzalez is better off in Cuba than he would be in the United States
"of receiving free health …an excellent education in one of the few countries that has 100% literacy, and a better chance of your baby sister being born and making it to her first birthday than if she had been born in Washington, D.C."

Moore claims that the majority of this nation's prison population is made up of "peaceful, harmless people who were caught using drugs or who were victims of California’s awful “Three Strikes” laws or some other despicable act of legal injustice."

In Chapter 11 of "Stupid White Men," Moore writes that he wishes all members of Congress would "suddenly develop incurable cancer, have a son/daughter come out of the closet, or suffer some type of personal misfortune."

He is an avid supporter of such readigns as Lenin’s ‘State and the Revolution,’ Che Guevera’s ‘Guerilla Warfare,’ and Karl Marx’s ‘Capital, Volume One.'


This is clearly a man who is not happy as an American... and I suggest he try to find himself a new place to live that might be more suited to his particular political ideals. Perhaps a nice shanty with Elian in Havana.


As for the Bush thing... he isn't using nuclear weapons... and yes, we technicaly are invading Iraq... even though it is justified by multiple UN sanctions and resolutions, all of which were violated by Saddam and called for "serious consequences" if they were violated. If he were to use nukes, yes my thoughts on the matter would change considerably. But anyone who follows this campaign, and doesn't believe Saddam's Iraqi State Television, knows that the United States is taking every precaution possiable to avoid civillian casualties, as well as supplying humanitarian aide. If they were to change this practice and committ war crimes, then I'd be right there with you in my protest. But it is clear that is not happening.
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:02 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
This is clearly a man who is not happy as an American... and I suggest he try to find himself a new place to live that might be more suited to his particular political ideals. Perhaps a nice shanty with Elian in Havana.
I would say that Michael Moore is a man trying to make the country he loves a better place and that he is forcing Americans to think about stuff in a different light. I would lay odds that he is a man who is highly conscious of how fortunate he is to live in America.

I also believe Elian should have been on the first boat back to Cuba to be with his only surviving parent. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with family and human decency.
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:20 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by YellowKite


I would say that Michael Moore is a man trying to make the country he loves a better place and that he is forcing Americans to think about stuff in a different light. I would lay odds that he is a man who is highly conscious of how fortunate he is to live in America.
Trying to make this a better place?!?

Michael Moore is a man who knows how to make $$$ by spewing his liberal diatribes in his books and movies. His acceptance speech at the Oscars was nothing more than a 30-second infomecial.

When one is conscious of how fortunate they are, it is typically shown in their humility.
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:23 PM   #117
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i felt the same way about elian gonzalez... he should be with his father and let the father make the decision... that's not the issue. moore's view had nothing to do with family and human decency, it had to do with the fact that he thought cuba was a better place for a child to grow up than america.

and i'm sorry... his comments on 9/11 and his wish of cancer upon all members of congress are inexcusable and indefensable.
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Old 03-25-2003, 09:55 PM   #118
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Michael Moore is a troll.
A troll who indulges on way too many Twinkies

thank u


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Old 03-25-2003, 11:07 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase

As for the Bush thing... he isn't using nuclear weapons... and yes, we technicaly are invading Iraq...
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that he *is* doing those things, I was just trying to come up with examples of things that might make you disagree with the war just for argument's sake....you might have realised that already but I just wanted to make sure.

nbcrusader, judging by Mr. Moore's clothes, I don't think he is all that into making $$$! He just doesn't seem like the type at all.
I think he is genuinely worried about the state the US is in, and although one might not agree with what he says, and he may not always go about saying it in the most appropriate way, I get the impression that he is genuine.
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Old 03-25-2003, 11:07 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
With all do respect, Mr. Moore ALWAYS seems to have some sort of problem with the government... I suppose that's his right, but perhaps if he spent some time living under a different type of government he wouldn't be quite as upset all the time with our government.
With all due respect, it seems that you aren't familiar with the "government" that Mr. Moore has made a career out of deriding. The documentary that got Michael Moore famous, "Roger and Me" (1989), was about the closure General Motors' plant at Flint, Michigan (where Moore is from), which resulted in the loss of 30,000 jobs. Being from Michigan, I can tell you that Flint, to this day, has never recovered from that and may never recover at all. And where was "government" that entire time? Deregulating industry and repealing labor laws. As a nation, our wages are *still* not as good as they were before Reagan's reign of terror, when adjusted for inflation.

Moore never may be the most eloquent of individuals, but I fathom that he may have a greater handle of what this "government" is about than you wish to give him credit for. And why the hell should he or any of us settle for crap for government? Just because Dubya told us to? It is unfortunate that so many years have passed now that people think that this is the way our country has always been.

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