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Old 07-14-2007, 04:22 PM   #331
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which, for me, requires evaluating my opinions to separate out my thoughts from what is valid and can be substantiated from which ones are just knee-jerk reactions


I will respond in due time.

leave the knee-jerking* for some of the rest of us



*gut feeling, I know in my heart, orthodoxy
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:45 PM   #332
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^ Good idea.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:11 PM   #333
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Sometimes I've the impression that part of America is catching up on the medieval times and therefore overtly-conservative when it comes to religion.
Do you really think so? To me it seems we have a whole spectrum of choices here in America - from old fashioned Baptists to New Age and everything in between. That seems pretty different from my understanding of medievel Europe.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:22 PM   #334
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Our unconscious tendency to cling to outdated medieval Christian theology is probably why Christianity today just seems....well, "medieval."
I respectfully disagree. I think Christian Theology is undergoing a transformation (albeit a slow one). Especially with the success of the Emergent Church scene and the writings of Elaine Pagel. This doesn't mean that Narative Theology or Gnosticism will ever become the dominant school of thought (maybe it will, but I sort of doubt it) - but I think they are impacting Orthodoxy - moving it in a new, and very exciting direction.

I tend to appear more conservative in this forum than I really am. I have read all of Elaine Pagel's books and I thought they were very insightful. I do think that Gnostic writings were left out of the Canon for good reason, but that doesn't mean they are completely devoid of deep spiritual insights.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:15 PM   #335
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A Song of Hope
by Dennis Jernigan


where, pray tell, in any of these articles, do the authors suddenly declare their love and sexual longing for boobs and vaginas?
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:30 PM   #336
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Originally posted by AEON


Do you really think so? To me it seems we have a whole spectrum of choices here in America - from old fashioned Baptists to New Age and everything in between. That seems pretty different from my understanding of medievel Europe.
That's right. My impression was more based on the kind of conservative, exclusive interpretation of the bible. Like people believing in Adam and Eve, the world being 6,000 years old, creationism etc. And argumentation is often based on what is written in the bible (like on this very topic).
And worse, the Christian extremists who don't tolerate anything that doesn't fit their view.
The difference is, as you said, that there is not a "monopoly church".

I definitely would love to spend some time in the US to get a better impression as to how strong this "movement" really is, as I know that of course diversity is pretty strong, and the media here likes to focus on some aspects stronger than on others, hence misrepresenting your country.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:34 AM   #337
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i've been trying to get you to answer the question as to whether or not "coming to christ" would make one stop being homosexual,
Irvine, I have been praying about how best to answer your question. I was discussing it with my wife and she said something very insightful. She reminded me that once we have that saving faith, God sees us as perfect, sinless, and glorious.

Essentially, God wouldn't see you as anything different than His son, Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual - it matters only that you believe.

Irvine, if you were in our congregation - I would love you as a brother in Christ. I wouldn't send you to Exodus or even hint that you need to change your orientation. I would love and accept you for everything that you are, just as God would. Instead, I would simply be there for you as a brother and strategize with you about how best to demonstrate Christlike love in this often bleak world.
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:23 AM   #338
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So, if it's no problem for God, why then is it such a huge problem for so many "followers in Christ"? When God is perfectly fine with it, why is it immoral for people?
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:56 PM   #339
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So are you saying that once a homosexual accepts Christ into his life, his orientation ceases to be immoral?
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:23 PM   #340
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Me? I don't believe at all and don't care about it. For me, homosexuality is not immoral.
I don't care who or what you accept.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:24 PM   #341
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So are you saying that once a homosexual accepts Christ into his life, his orientation ceases to be immoral?
I am saying that any human that accepts Christ is perfect in God's eyes because of the blood Jesus shed for us.

Ephesians 2:13-22

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:41 PM   #342
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So, there goes the immorality.
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:11 PM   #343
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Originally posted by AEON


Irvine, I have been praying about how best to answer your question. I was discussing it with my wife and she said something very insightful. She reminded me that once we have that saving faith, God sees us as perfect, sinless, and glorious.

Essentially, God wouldn't see you as anything different than His son, Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual - it matters only that you believe.

Irvine, if you were in our congregation - I would love you as a brother in Christ. I wouldn't send you to Exodus or even hint that you need to change your orientation. I would love and accept you for everything that you are, just as God would. Instead, I would simply be there for you as a brother and strategize with you about how best to demonstrate Christlike love in this often bleak world.


that's a kind answer. thank you.
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Old 07-15-2007, 07:35 PM   #344
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So, there goes the immorality.
Not exactly - Romans 8:1-21 answers this (from the Message translatation):

1 -2With the arrival of Jesus, the Messiah, that fateful dilemma is resolved. Those who enter into Christ's being-here-for-us no longer have to live under a continuous, low-lying black cloud. A new power is in operation. The Spirit of life in Christ, like a strong wind, has magnificently cleared the air, freeing you from a fated lifetime of brutal tyranny at the hands of sin and death.

3 -4God went for the jugular when he sent his own Son. He didn't deal with the problem as something remote and unimportant. In his Son, Jesus, he personally took on the human condition, entered the disordered mess of struggling humanity in order to set it right once and for all. The law code, weakened as it always was by fractured human nature, could never have done that.

The law always ended up being used as a Band-Aid on sin instead of a deep healing of it. And now what the law code asked for but we couldn't deliver is accomplished as we, instead of redoubling our own efforts, simply embrace what the Spirit is doing in us.

5 -8Those who think they can do it on their own end up obsessed with measuring their own moral muscle but never get around to exercising it in real life. Those who trust God's action in them find that God's Spirit is in them—living and breathing God! Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life. Focusing on the self is the opposite of focusing on God. Anyone completely absorbed in self ignores God, ends up thinking more about self than God. That person ignores who God is and what he is doing. And God isn't pleased at being ignored.

9 -11But if God himself has taken up residence in your life, you can hardly be thinking more of yourself than of him. Anyone, of course, who has not welcomed this invisible but clearly present God, the Spirit of Christ, won't know what we're talking about. But for you who welcome him, in whom he dwells—even though you still experience all the limitations of sin—you yourself experience life on God's terms. It stands to reason, doesn't it, that if the alive-and-present God who raised Jesus from the dead moves into your life, he'll do the same thing in you that he did in Jesus, bringing you alive to himself? When God lives and breathes in you (and he does, as surely as he did in Jesus), you are delivered from that dead life. With his Spirit living in you, your body will be as alive as Christ's!

12 -14So don't you see that we don't owe this old do-it-yourself life one red cent. There's nothing in it for us, nothing at all. The best thing to do is give it a decent burial and get on with your new life. God's Spirit beckons. There are things to do and places to go!

15 -17This resurrection life you received from God is not a timid, grave-tending life. It's adventurously expectant, greeting God with a childlike "What's next, Papa?" God's Spirit touches our spirits and confirms who we really are. We know who he is, and we know who we are: Father and children. And we know we are going to get what's coming to us—an unbelievable inheritance! We go through exactly what Christ goes through. If we go through the hard times with him, then we're certainly going to go through the good times with him!

18 -21That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.
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Old 07-15-2007, 07:37 PM   #345
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that's a kind answer. thank you.
You're welcome. My wife is both hot and wise. I'm a blessed man.

I would also like to thank you for helping me understand this subject much more clearly than I did motnhs ago.
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