MERGED--> He became straight + I despise...

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
U2isthebest said:


I believe she was being sarcastic. She was basically trying to say "Praise the Lord" sarcastically that this guy has ruined his life, his wife, and his daughter's because of the teaching of the Ex gay movement or whatever they're calling it now. Sorry to speak for you joyful girl; I wasn't sure if you were still here! If I'm completely off, :reject:

You're close! :) This guy actually isn't part of any ex-gay brainwashing movement. He simply was afraid of getting AIDS in the early 80s and "decided" not to be gay anymore, and he identifies himself as a Christian. He is not on any crusade to make gays straight or anything (seeing as how it's been sooo successful for him and all...), nor does he even speak about his once very open gayness. He simply went back in the closet and closed the door, and lives a total lie.

The "Praise the Lord" comment was, yes, sarcastic, because in the article Diamond posted, the guy claims turning to God can make gays straight, and I'm saying yes, I've seen this up close and personal and um, sorry, it's a crock of shit. I knew him before, and I know him now, and he's as gay and closeted as the day is long. We're talking a particular kind of stereotypically gay. I mean, a mean flaming queen.
 
MadelynIris said:


Although Christ didn't explicity come out against homosexuality, he did support the tenants of most of the OT.

And dispelled and counteracted many as well.

MadelynIris said:

We all know that many writers/prophets of the OT explicitly came out against homosexuality.

Of course Paul, also supported these writers/prophets, and explicitly came out against homosexuality in the NT.


Here's a great website:

http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Templat...ty&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=583
 
What did you think of the article, diamond? I'm curious.

Glatze was quoted in passing in an article about gay youth issues in TIME a couple years back, which may or may not have foreshadowed his present discontents:
Because he routinely sees young gays on MTV or even at school, a 14-year-old may now feel comfortable telling friends that he likes other boys, but that doesn't mean he is ready to enfold himself in a gay identity. "Today so many kids who are gay, they don't like Cher. They aren't part of the whole subculture," says Michael Glatze, 30, editor in chief of YGA magazine. "They feel like they belong in their faith, in their families."

"Increasingly, these kids are like straight kids," says Savin-Williams. "Straight kids don't define themselves by sexuality, even though sexuality is a huge part of who they are. Of course they want to have sex, but they don't say, 'It is what I am.'" He believes young gays are moving toward a "postgay" identity. "Just because they're gay, they don't have to march in a parade. Part of it is political. Part is personal, developmental."

The political part is what worries Glatze. "I don't think the gay movement understands the extent to which the next generation just wants to be normal kids. The people who are getting that are the Christian right," he says. Indeed, several of those I met at the Exodus event had come not because they thought it would make them straight or even because they are particularly fervent Christians. Instead, they were there because they find something empty about gay culture--a feeling that Exodus exploits with frequent declamations about gays' supposed promiscuity and intemperance. "I'm just not attracted to the gay lifestyle, toward gay people--I've never felt a kinship with them," says Manuel Lopez, a lapsed Catholic and University of Chicago grad student who went to the Exodus meeting. "There's a certain superficiality in gay attachments--musicals, fashion ... I do think it's a happier life being straight."
Personally, I've never known any gay people whose "attachments" were based on musicals, fashion and Cher--though I'm sure they exist; plenty of straight people's "attachments" seem to be based on mutual pop culture consumption of various kinds after all, so it'd only make sense. I don't see what that has to do with what kinds of bodies you're attracted to though.

The yearning to 'just be a normal kid' can be a horribly painful one (not least because it can be so chimerical, as 'abnormal' kids of many types can attest), but then part of growing up is coming to terms with which parts of yourself are worth feeling guilt over and which ones aren't. The basic fact of that will never change.

As far as the present article,
We believe, under the influence of homosexuality, that lust is not just acceptable, but a virtue. But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust.

That's why homosexual sex – and all other lust-based sex – is never satisfactory: It's a neurotic process rather than a natural, normal one.

Homosexuality allows us to avoid digging deeper, through superficiality and lust-inspired attractions – at least, as long as it remains "accepted" by law.
OK...so he feels strongly that 'superficial, lust-inspired' attractions are bad for you and stunt your human development. I can understand that; that's something I practice in my own life, and while I'd hardly want to legislate it, I can certainly relate to why someone would feel that way. But to me this sounds more like an argument for more visibility, more support, and more honoring of all the longterm committed gay relationships that exist out there. Absolutely, why shouldn't religious gay people be able to realize 'love, honor, cherish and obey' in their own lives?

That said, I can't make heads or tails of what exactly he thinks a healthy sexual relationship is supposed to look like, or what precisely he takes 'lust' to consist of. Love and commitment are wonderful things, they can certainly make sexual relationships more fulfilling, but in and of themselves they don't make you horny. If and when he does get involved with a woman, if he thinks that "pure" love, deep regard for and commitment to her is somehow going to be all it takes to make things run smoothly in the bedroom--well, good luck with that. Or perhaps it's just a case for morally mandatory permanent celibacy--but then, talk about unnatural...
People caught in the act would rather stay "blissfully ignorant" by silencing truth and those who speak it, through antagonism, condemnation and calling them words like "racist"
...which makes me wonder what other sorts of 'truths' he has in mind here.
A huge and vital difference exists between superficial admiration – of yourself, or others – and integral admiration. In loving ourselves fully, we no longer need anything from the "outside" world of lustful desire, recognition from others, or physical satisfaction. Our drives become intrinsic to our very essence, unbridled by neurotic distractions.

Lust takes us out of our bodies, "attaching" our psyche onto someone else's physical form.

...our normal state, of being perfectly united in all things, and divides us, causing us to forever pine for an outside physical object that we can never possess. Homosexual people – like all people – yearn for the mythical true love, which does actually exist.
Alcibiades! Is that really you?
 
Last edited:
MadelynIris said:
Although Christ didn't explicity come out against homosexuality, he did support the tenants of most of the OT. We all know that many writers/prophets of the OT explicitly came out against homosexuality.

Of course Paul, also supported these writers/prophets, and explicitly came out against homosexuality in the NT.

False. Paul came out against the homosexual practices of that day. Today is a different type of homosexuality.
 
I'm so befuddled by some of what's in this thread I don't even know how to respond.


Guess what folks the Bible is *gasp* not the literal truth!


I say that as a God loving Christian.
 
Sure,
the bible is the tool for Genital Mutilation.

Sexuality is evil and must be repressed.

We need to have our sexuality circumcised,
cut out of our human bodies.
 
joyfulgirl said:
Yeah, I know someone who became straight, too. After leading an openly gay life for many years, AIDS and the Christian church scared the shit out of him. So he became straight. He married a woman and had a child. He hates his wife and women in general and never misses an opportunity to put her down in public. He's angry, hateful, resentful, critical, drinks too much, and goes to church on Sunday to repent. They've not shared a bed since their daughter was conceived (she's 16 now) and when you ask her what daddy does for a living she answers, "I don't know. Mom and I don't know. We never see him. He has some kind of secret life." They've been "together" now for 25 years. It's so beautiful how he was able to turn his life around. Praise the Lord. :up:

Somehow I highly doubt he ever found God if he acts like that.
 
shart1780 said:


Somehow I highly doubt he ever found God if he acts like that.

That's what happens when people tell you that God can't be found with homosexuality...
 
phillyfan26 said:


That's what happens when people tell you that God can't be found with homosexuality...

Exactly. He cannot fully embrace a religion that would reject him for being who he really is, so he tries to be what they want him to be out of fear, and over time this makes a person a bit crazy.
 
U2Democrat,

Guess what folks the Bible is *gasp* not the literal truth!

I know what you're getting at, but... being the daughter of a minister and all.... Most modern christian theology recognizes the NT as accurate representations of the original authors (too much to back it up).

So, I agree, it's open to interpretation, but Paul specifically called out homosexuality as a sin. Not saying that it was right, wrong, or indifferent, but...

*Flame caveat* -- I have no problem with homosexuals. I respect them, love them, hang out with them, work with them, appreciate them, and support their right to a normal, fullfilling life.

But I really get confused when people try to ignore this part of the NT, or twist it into something else. I prefer to call it like it is, and recognize the fact that Paul explicitly declared it as a sin. You don't have to listen to or agree with Paul as a Christian, but... much of the faith is built upon his other writings.
 
Last edited:
in reading the original article, i would say this guy is at stage two in cass' theory of homosexual identity development. he's got a long ways to go. it'd be interesting to see what he writes about a few years from now.
 
MadelynIris said:
*Flame caveat* -- I have no problem with homosexuals. I respect them, love them, hang out with them, work with them, appreciate them, and support their right to a normal, fullfilling life.

But I really get confused when people try to ignore this part of the NT, or twist it into something else. I prefer to call it like it is, and recognize the fact that Paul explicitly declared it as a sin. You don't have to listen to or agree with Paul as a Christian, but... much of the faith is built upon his other writings.

I have said this ad infinitum here, but I'll say it again. The fact that anyone reads into the Bible as condemning "all homosexuality" is a heterosexist bias. People like to say that Sodom and Gomorrah, for instance, is a passage that condemns "all homosexuality." And, yet, Judges 19 is essentially a complete regurgitation of that, but in the city of Gibeah--and involving heterosexual sex. As such, why isn't that a sweeping condemnation of "all heterosexuality"? Because you're heterosexual and you'll say things like "rape is wrong," etc. In other words, you're willing to grant nuance when you're part of the "condemned demographic," but completely unwilling to do so when they're outsiders. That's certainly the kind of attitude that bred 2,000 years of "Biblically-based" anti-Semitism.

The two practices that St. Paul specifically observed were (bisexual) Greco-Roman temple orgies, which revolved around the principle that sex brought one closer to the gods, and Greco-Roman pederasty, which involved older men preying on younger men, whereupon once they reached "maturity," they would get married to women.

The sheer fact that both practices are archaic and do not have a corresponding modern vernacular word is why many translators trip over themselves to mangle these passages. I also think that modern readers would have no problem either accepting St. Paul's condemnations of idolatrous orgies or what amounts to pedophilia. As far as I'm concerned, your view on Paul and homosexuality amounts to nothing more than bad theology.
 
And diamond, the next time you cry that people inappropriately hate Mormons, I'll remember this inane thread of yours, and I certainly won't come to your defense in any capacity any longer.
 
Ormus,

Agree on the condemnation of those practices. But the argument is weak when used against verses like:

Romans 1:26-27

“For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”

Sure, this can be sliced, diced and interpreted many different ways, but it sure seems like Paul was referring to the practice of sex with one's same sex. Not just the aldulterous nature of it.

No need to argue. I understand the plight. My theology might be bad. I have no horse in this race other than I think it naive to twist Paul into accepting homosexuality -- for goodness sake, he barely accepted heterosexuality. ;)
 
MadelynIris said:
Ormus,

Agree on the condemnation of those practices. But the argument is weak when used against verses like:

Romans 1:26-27

“For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”

Sure, this can be sliced, diced and interpreted many different ways, but it sure seems like Paul was referring to the practice of sex with one's same sex. Not just the aldulterous nature of it.

No need to argue. I understand the plight. My theology might be bad. I have no horse in this race other than I think it naive to twist Paul into accepting homosexuality -- for goodness sake, he barely accepted heterosexuality. ;)

Again, homosexuality as we know it today did not even exist then, so how could he condemn something he didn't know about?
 
homosexuality as we know it today did not even exist then, so how could he condemn something he didn't know about?

PhillysFan,

I'm not sure what you are getting at, but obviously, it did exist. There were homosexuals, and they had relationships like we have today.

Got this from some ancient attitudes on homosexuality:

In modern cultures, a myth has been spread, mostly by homophobic religious groups, that homosexuality is primarily a modern phenomenon, that it is a chosen orientation, and it is a symptom of moral decline.
Such a notion runs counter to what we know of homosexuality, and what we know of its history and its biological origins. We now know, for example, that most men in ancient Greece and Rome engaged in at least occasional homosexual contact, and a not insignificant number of the marriages consummated in both civilizations were homosexual. We know that homosexuality, though not known by that name, was not only tolerated, but even celebrated in the arts, theater and in cultural activities. The ancients did not view gender as a determining factor of who should love or be married to who; the qualifications related solely to matters of age and biological relationship (incest).
 
MadelynIris said:
Agree on the condemnation of those practices. But the argument is weak when used against verses like:

Romans 1:26-27

“For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”

Sure, this can be sliced, diced and interpreted many different ways, but it sure seems like Paul was referring to the practice of sex with one's same sex. Not just the aldulterous nature of it.

The problem with your argument here is that Romans 1 is an exact description of a pagan temple orgy! The previous verse gives it away:

"While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes." - Romans 1:22-23

The main problem with Paul is that he was writing in a regional "vulgar Greek," which, if you're familiar with the differences between "classical Latin" and "vulgar Latin," you'll understand why later translations can be difficult. In fact, Paul's Greek was not discovered in an extra-Biblical source until the 19th century after an excavation in Turkey. Beforehand, it was tradition that Paul's Greek was special and of divine origin.

So, basically, Paul is not afraid to speak in the language of the masses, which means a heavy use of phrases and words that he will assume that his target audience understands. This attitude became the underlying reasoning behind Eugene Peterson's "The Message." I can only imagine how our slang will be translated in 2,000 years!

It has been stated that you shouldn't "pick and choose" from the Bible; that you have to understand the totality of the message. Paul's epistles certainly have to be read that way, because he has a pattern of starting his epistles with thinly-veiled flattery to the audiences he's trying to convert and finishing them by showing how his audience's preconceptions are wrong. The greatest example of this in the Pauline epistles is in his appropriation of the phrase, "the Law." Paul's contemporaries would have believed "the Law" to mean "Mosaic Law," whereas he firmly believed that Jesus changed "the Law" to refer to one commandment, to love one another.

Romans 1 is an example of that flattery, by appealing to Rome's Jewish Christians' sense of self-righteousness. By making mention of the temple cult orgy, the initial reactions would be that the Jewish Christians are superior and better than those common pagans. However, Paul then goes straight into Romans 2 and rips into the Jewish Christians, essentially stating that they are no better than the common pagan and will be judged on the same level.

The moral of Romans is in Romans 13, which I have quoted from regularly:

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:8-10

These verses are probably the cornerstone of Paul's theology, whereas Romans 1 is barely an afterthought, written in confusing language. The word translated as "unnatural," para-physin, was also used as an adjective for God in another epistle.

No need to argue. I understand the plight. My theology might be bad. I have no horse in this race other than I think it naive to twist Paul into accepting homosexuality -- for goodness sake, he barely accepted heterosexuality. ;)

Paul looked to the ideal of Jesus, and interpreted that as emulating Him in His entirety--and since Jesus was asexual, then the ideal was to be asexual too. This theology rears its ugly head twice in the future, once with St. Augustine, whose fixation with asexuality likely had to do with his previous faith of Manicheanism's hatred of sex, and again with St. Thomas Aquinas, who expounded on Augustine's hatred of sex with a complete hatred of any and all emotion (also a tenet of Manicheanism). It's because of the latter that we have the modern adjective of "stoic," meaning "one who is seemingly indifferent to or unaffected by joy, grief, pleasure, or pain."

Christian homophobia owes itself more to these two individuals than it does to the Bible. Nonetheless, it's origin can almost directly be traced to St. Peter Damian, whose stoic work, Liber Gomorrhianus--an 11th century "attack on homosexual practices, mutual masturbation, copulation between the thighs, anal copulation and solitary masturbation, as subversive disruptions against the moral order occasioned by the madness associated with an excess of lust"--was actually condemned by Pope Leo IX as "excessive." Nonetheless, extremism was rampant in these days. Damian was also the man responsible for introducing "self-flagellation" as a theological virtue, and, not so coincidentally, this was also the time when clergy celibacy was mandated, with Damian and his allies having great influence in the Vatican during this time. This is why I have issues with the traditional excuse that clergy celibacy was mandated as a result of preventing church property going to their heirs. It frankly doesn't add up, considering the climate involved.
 
MadelynIris said:
U2Democrat,



I know what you're getting at, but... being the daughter of a minister and all.... Most modern christian theology recognizes the NT as accurate representations of the original authors (too much to back it up).

So, I agree, it's open to interpretation, but Paul specifically called out homosexuality as a sin. Not saying that it was right, wrong, or indifferent, but...

*Flame caveat* -- I have no problem with homosexuals. I respect them, love them, hang out with them, work with them, appreciate them, and support their right to a normal, fullfilling life.

But I really get confused when people try to ignore this part of the NT, or twist it into something else. I prefer to call it like it is, and recognize the fact that Paul explicitly declared it as a sin. You don't have to listen to or agree with Paul as a Christian, but... much of the faith is built upon his other writings.

I'm the daughter of a minister as well...and a sister...and a sister in law of ministers. My faith is built simply upon there is something bigger than us out there, and that we are to love one another as ourselves. That's all you need as a Christian, or even if you're not a Christian. I simply cannot take a lot of stock in the Bible for many reasons:

Meanings lost in translation
Stories passed down orally before getting written down
Written and edited by men, therefore it is fallible.
I don't need a book to confirm my faith, and I certainly don't need men who lived 6000-2000 years ago dictating to me what science clearly states otherwise. :shrug:
 
MadelynIris said:
IIn modern cultures, a myth has been spread, mostly by homophobic religious groups, that homosexuality is primarily a modern phenomenon, that it is a chosen orientation, and it is a symptom of moral decline.

Such a notion runs counter to what we know of homosexuality, and what we know of its history and its biological origins. We now know, for example, that most men in ancient Greece and Rome engaged in at least occasional homosexual contact, and a not insignificant number of the marriages consummated in both civilizations were homosexual. We know that homosexuality, though not known by that name, was not only tolerated, but even celebrated in the arts, theater and in cultural activities. The ancients did not view gender as a determining factor of who should love or be married to who; the qualifications related solely to matters of age and biological relationship (incest).

I think it's a bit of a generalization. Up until the 19th century, it was strictly believed that homosexuality was the result of heterosexuals consciously sinning--which is probably why homophobic religions today drill the idea that "it's a choice." From the 19th century up until 1970s, it went from being "a choice" to being "a psychosis" that can be "cured" (again, you can see why many homophobic religions also insist that it can be "cured").

The former idea was probably the result of Greco-Roman sexual mores, which, for better or for worse, were not monogamous. Marriage was more about power consolidation and property alliances, so expressions of love, passion, and lust were found outside of the marriage. As such, as part of biology, homosexuality "existed," but to outsiders, who saw married men carrying on adulterous affairs with other men, you can probably see why they believed homosexuality to be nothing more than "a choice" taken by heterosexuals. The latter resulted in the Greco-Roman institution of "pederasty," with older men having a sexual relationship with teenage men, which was manipulative and predatory, at times. Once the teenage men became adults, they then were expected to marry a woman and have children.

The other socially acceptable means of extramarital sex was in pagan temple orgies, which existed for many centuries, and was practiced even by the pagan Semitic tribes surrounded by Israel during the OT. Greco-Roman society, much like American society, was not above absorbing "the best" from other civilizations (crucifixion, for instance, was a gift from their rivals, the Persians). These orgies were, essentially, a worship service, as it was believed that sex brought one closer to the gods. These temples were banned entirely in the 4th century A.D. with the Christianization of the Roman Empire.

Nonetheless, Greco-Roman ideas did not die abruptly in the disintegrating empire. Loveless, arranged marriages in Europe were common through the 19th century, until the revolutionary idea arose that marriages should be for love. With the rise of the secular nation-state and the fall of nobility and imperialism, this idea took root, which obviously survives up to today. In the many centuries in between, extramarital affairs were highly rampant, with male nobles having mistresses left and right and female nobles not immune to the practice either. More than one queen had a torrid love affair with a high-ranking minister, while happening completely under the knowledge of the king, who, by this time, had no love for his wife anyway.

So when I say that "modern homosexuality" was never considered in the Bible, this is why. It wasn't. The idea of "homosexuality," even as a "psychosis," as thought of in the late 19th century, was highly controversial and revolutionary when it was proposed.
 
U2democrat said:





Meanings lost in translation
Stories passed down orally before getting written down
Written and edited by men, therefore it is fallible.
I don't need a book to confirm my faith, and I certainly don't need men who lived 6000-2000 years ago dictating to me what science clearly states otherwise. :shrug:

What is the foundation?

Where does it begin?

Abraham?

That really is a pretty shabby story.
 
I'm the daughter of a minister as well...and a sister...and a sister in law of ministers

U2Democrat -- I'm sorry. I wasn't saying that I was a daughter of a minister. I meant, I know that you are. ;)


I'm generally ok with your fallable take on the OT -- but not as much the NT. I think it is what it is, with much less room for translation issues. Fair enough.
 
MadelynIris said:


U2Democrat -- I'm sorry. I wasn't saying that I was a daughter of a minister. I meant, I know that you are. ;)

OK, wasn't sure, that clears things up thanks.

MadelynIris said:

I'm generally ok with your fallable take on the OT -- but not as much the NT. I think it is what it is, with much less room for translation issues. Fair enough.

I guess we'll agree to disagree ;)
 
Back
Top Bottom