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Old 07-13-2007, 04:30 PM   #241
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With that in mind, would you consider people living monogamously under a Civil Union immoral?
Yes. I would consider it immoral, but obviously not illegal. I would prefer that the laws mirrored all of my moral beliefs, but that's simply not realistic in this case.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:35 PM   #242
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I use the word i"immoral" in a spiritual sense. My Biblical understanding of the topic disagrees with Melon's. I would rather not go down that path yet again. If you would like, please do a search on all of those posts I made several months ago.



okay. so that's clear. you use the Bible to come to that definition, nothing else. not science, not reason, not your own intuition. the Bible.

that's fine.





[q] I tend to believe that my own interpretation is more “objective” because I have nothing to gain or lose in the result of the research (since I am not gay). But I’m certain that Melon would think he is more objective because he is not brainwashed by the Conservative Christian scholars.[/q]

or maybe you do have something to lose -- a belief you've been brought up with and have spent time defending, and a belief that, if shattered, would challenge a worldview you've obviously spent time with and studied closely.



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In summary, anything that misses the God’s mark is immoral. Homosexual behavior is only way of missing the target. There are many others – and I have certainly missed the mark many times in my own life.
how can i miss the mark -- if we adopt your worldview -- when i am not turned on sexually or emotionally by women. i do not respond sexually to pictures of naked women. and it would seem to me that if i were to try to live as straight, it would be a terrible thing to do -- nay, an immoral thing to do -- to the women i might potentially be involved with.

so what am i to do? are you saying that the condition of homosexuality, something i had no choice in, something that was not voluntarily chosen in any sort of meaningful way, is in and of itself immoral? or is it only when i try to embark on romantic relationships, just as any straight person would, that it becomes immoral?

what am i supposed to do.

please answer that. it is very important to me.

what am i supposed to do about it?
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:36 PM   #243
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I would prefer that the laws mirrored all of my moral beliefs, but that's simply not realistic in this case.
Really?

Have you given that a lot of thought?
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:37 PM   #244
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I would prefer that the laws mirrored all of my moral beliefs, but that's simply not realistic in this case.
Really? What would be the point?
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:40 PM   #245
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let me try this on you.

could you have a discussion with someone who insisted that it was immoral to be left-handed?

racism and sexism are beliefs -- for lack of a better word -- whereas a sexual orientation, like being left-handed, is an immutable condition -- for lack of a better word -- where words like "immoral" or phrases like "i disagree with" are logically absurd.

does that make sense?
I must admit, it actually would be very entertaining to hear how someone believed being left handed was immoral.

As far as discussing immutable conditions, as a Christian, I discuss this with fellow believers all of the time. We discuss our "old natures" - that is our sinful nature, and how it sometimes wins the battle for our minds. We also discuss our "new, Christlike natures" and how it fills our hearts and minds with Light, Truth, and Love. Our old nature doesn't change, we actually become a new creation. Unfortunately, we sometimes prop up the old self and give it attention.

My point is this - the old nature is corrupt and sinful whether it is left handed, right handed, gay, straight, Infantry, or hippie. The new nature we receive from Christ is perfect, holy, and eternal. It is the essence of an "immutable condition."
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:43 PM   #246
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The new nature we receive from Christ is perfect, holy, and eternal. It is the essence of an "immutable condition."


so, what you are saying, is that if i were to become Saved, born again, give my life over to Christ, i'd find myself attracted to women?

if my brother did that, would his immutable condition as a leftie change as well?
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:44 PM   #247
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I must admit, it actually would be very entertaining to hear how someone believed being left handed was immoral.

It's probably as absurd as those that believe homosexuality is immoral.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:44 PM   #248
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As far as discussing immutable conditions, as a Christian, I discuss this with fellow believers all of the time. We discuss our "old natures" - that is our sinful nature, and how it sometimes wins the battle for our minds. We also discuss our "new, Christlike natures" and how it fills our hearts and minds with Light, Truth, and Love. Our old nature doesn't change, we actually become a new creation. Unfortunately, we sometimes to prop up the old self and give it attention.


and can you understand how, to an outsider, this sounds positively cultish? the very essence of brainwashing?
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:45 PM   #249
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In summary, anything that misses the God’s mark is immoral. Homosexual behavior is only way of missing the target. There are many others – and I have certainly missed the mark many times in my own life.
The thing that I have always struggled to understand about statements like the above is this: If homosexuality is just one of many ways of missing the target, why then is it such a huge battlefield for conservative Christians? I see more fire and venom from Christians over this subject than adultery, for example, and I'm pretty sure the bible devotes more time to the subject of fidelity and trust than it does to the "immorality" of homosexuality.

When someone "in the flock" is found to have committed adultery, everyone is quick to excuse, deflect or qualify, and quick to forgive, and yet homosexuality remains wrong at every level, regardless of how faithful the homosexual is, regardless of how kind and giving that individual may be, regardless of how more Christ-like that person may live his life than the Christians judging him.

If homosexuality really is just one other sin, then what possible justification is there for the amount of importance, the weight of its immorality, that it has been given?
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:47 PM   #250
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so, what you are saying, is that if i were to become Saved, born again, give my life over to Christ, i'd find myself attracted to women?

I think someone has to touch your forehead, tell you you're saved as you fall to the ground, and then you wake up fantasizing about Jessica Beal.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:49 PM   #251
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what am i supposed to do.

please answer that. it is very important to me.

what am i supposed to do about it?
My honest answer is - I don't know. If you were sitting here right beside me I would say forget about worrying whether or not I think you are immoral, simply look to Christ. Don't look for an answer immediately - just build a relationship with Him. Get to know Him through the Scriptures, through prayer, and through worship. Anything else is secondary.

If during that relationship, your views on the subject change - great. If not - great. The important thing is that YOU will know God as you have never known Him before. Everything else, you can leave behind.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:52 PM   #252
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if my brother did that, would his immutable condition as a leftie change as well?
No - the Cardinals need good left handed pitchers.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:52 PM   #253
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My honest answer is - I don't know. If you were sitting here right beside me I would say forget about worrying whether or not I think you are immoral, simply look to Christ. Don't look for an answer immediately - just build a relationship with Him. Get to know Him through the Scriptures, through prayer, and through worship. Anything else is secondary.

If during that relationship, your views on the subject change - great. If not - great. The important thing is that YOU will know God as you have never known Him before. Everything else, you can leave behind.


this doesn't answer the question at all, but it was the answer i was expecting, and it gets right back to the fact that you don't have an answer. you can't answer the question because it is unanswerable because it's premise is fundamentally absurd. there is nothing one can do about being homosexual, much in the way that there is nothing one can do about being heterosexual.

but i want to push you on this. i want you to use Christ and your love for him and this Light and Truth and think harder about this. pray on this. and tell me, in your eyes, what am i supposed to do? what does Christ want for me to do? what if i do what you say, but i remain homosexual? would i then need to try harder? would i not be doing it right if i still had thoughts and feelings for me?

you do realize, of course, that what you're advocating is what the people who run the reparative "therapy" camps do.

and when gay kids try so hard to come to Christ, and this doesn't "cure" them of their sexual orientation, then tend to kill themselves?
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:53 PM   #254
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so what am i to do? are you saying that the condition of homosexuality, something i had no choice in, something that was not voluntarily chosen in any sort of meaningful way, is in and of itself immoral? or is it only when i try to embark on romantic relationships, just as any straight person would, that it becomes immoral?

what am i supposed to do.

please answer that. it is very important to me.

what am i supposed to do about it?
I kind of feel like this is a discussion that might have taken place a couple of hundred years ago in Europe.

and Aeon is the gentle inquisidor speaking cordially to the heathen Jew, Irvine.

Irvine, just come over and be saved, all you have to do is publicly renounce and stop all those Jewish behaviors, and never speak Hebrew or read Torah again.

Or keep choosing sin and suffer the consequences.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:54 PM   #255
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If homosexuality really is just one other sin, then what possible justification is there for the amount of importance, the weight of its immorality, that it has been given?
I do agree with you on this. Unfortunately, it's what gets all of us to post in the threads more than any other topic it seems.
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