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Old 07-13-2007, 01:18 PM   #226
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Variation within a population is the engine of survival.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I though Natural Selection requires variation along with the ability to produce offspring. Without the ability to create offspring, the variation cannot benefit the survival of the species.
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:19 PM   #227
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Understanding the cause is still important. If the cause is purely psychological - then it would be possible for people to address it and "cure" it there. If it is purely genetic, then I suppose it opens up the debate of Natural Selection. Meaning, it is a decisively genetic disadvantage to be a homosexual and that the societies and cultures inherently understand this and perhaps that is why they tend to react negatively toward it.

Natural Selection Requires...

For natural selection to occur, two requirements are essential:

1.There must be heritable variation for some trait. Examples: beak size, color pattern, thickness of skin, fleetness.

2.There must be differential survival and reproduction associated with the possession of that trait.

Unless both these requirements are met, adaptation by natural selection cannot occur.

SOURCE: Natural Selection
Wheres the nuance?

Natural selection depends on a traits relative abundance within a population, for something that is multifactorial like homosexuality the adventageous elements of the causes may not be the actual behaviour in the individual but the overall fitness of the species (i.e. the ability to survive and reproduce). The statistics linking homosexual siblings to fecundity and the altruistic benefits of a gay sibling to rearing young (thus increasing the chance that the genetic material gets replicated) are examples where evolution could favour a few genetic cul de sacs for the reproductive advantage of siblings (since they share a high proportion of common genetic material).

Other examples where behaviour that seems to be a disadvantage at first glance are things like siblicide in some species of bird where the parents will stand by while one sibling knocks another out of the nest but when looked at statistically that one sibling that gets more resources will breed more than two weak siblings that have to share resources.

Evolution red in tooth and claw is archaic and wrong in may instances, looking at the mechanisms in populations and how effectively genes get passed on is very powerful and the modern synthesis has yielded tremendous insights over the decades.

Personally I feel that the cause of homosexuality is biological since everything is grounded in the real world but as intellectually stimulating that cause may be it is inconcequential to the notion of sexual liberties and the freedom for people to engage in consensual sex with whom they wish.
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:41 PM   #228
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[B]

I don’t dismiss racism. I don’t agree with it, but I don’t dismiss it because it is such a powerful force. I think if it is to ever be defeated, if it can be, the cause of it must be understood. One simply cannot dismiss racist as something only ignorant white trash subscribe to. I have heard racist statements and witnesses racist attitudes from just about every class in society. The same with “homophobia” and sexism.

but if i were to say, "blacks are less intelligent than asians," wouldn't you dismiss that thought? if i were to say, "women should be subservient to their husbands," wouldn't you dismiss that thought?

this is different than dismissing the *thinker* or trying to understand where such attitudes come from. i agree that this is a worthy pursuit and a more noble way to combat racism or sexism than to call people stupid. i can call an attitude or thought stupid, but i agree that calling the individual stupid isn't productive.

which is what i try to do here.

it just occured to me that i have to spend a great deal of time in these threads discussing myself in order to combat some of the various beliefs about homosexuality. i talk about how i have a father who wasn't distant and a mother who wasn't too overbearing. i talk about my struggles, the difficulty of the coming out process, the naturalness with which i relate to the same gender, and the utter "normalcy" of my relationship. i have to stress that i am mongamous and committed and that my attraction to men is more than just to a penis, that it's constitutional, which is to say emotional and physical.

and i also notice that macocksean never has to explain that he isn't a criminal or that he did, in fact, graduate from high school. we would never assume that because he's african-american that these two misconceptions apply to him. yolland never has to talk about how she isn't actually pushy and money-grubbing nor does she drink the blood of Muslim children every morning. AngelaHarlem, i'm pretty sure, doesn't wrestle crocodiles and i'm fairly certain that Judah isn't going to be strapping any bombs to his chest in the near future.

we would never assume these things. we'd never expect them to discredit the assumption at the outset in the way that i feel -- and perhaps i'm wrong -- that i have to discredit whatever stereotypes about gay people exist.

simply, it seems far more acceptable to hold homophobic stereotypes than it does for any other kind of stereotype. diamond will write essays about the evils of racism across the world, and then turn around and dish out the same stuff as racism, only in the guise of homophobia.

it can be a lot of pressure, and there are times when i wonder if i'm not putting too much of it on myself to have to "represent the community," or as we might have heard in the past, "elevate the race." i have problems like everyone else, there are elements of the gay community that i don't like, much in the way that there are elements in the Christian community that i'm sure you don't like.

and i'm not totally sure where i'm going with this.

but this all starts with the refusal to agree with a fairly basic fact: sexual orientation is involuntary. and this is why the homophobes hold onto that notion so mightily. without any sort of doubt, they have no case whatsoever to support the beliefs that have formulated decades of political posturing.

it would be very, very embarassing.







[q]Also, as with all things, there are varying degrees of attitudes. You may consider me homophobic because I believe homosexuality is immoral, but I would consider it an honor to risk my life for you. There are other “homophobes” that would just rather see you dead. Just as you do not like to be lumped into a group considered ignoramuses, neither do I.[/q]

sure, there are degrees of homophobia, just as there are degrees of racism. i would hardly put, say, Memphis's extended family and a KKK Grand Wizard on the same page. but both hold racist attitudes to some degree.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:00 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



but if i were to say, "blacks are less intelligent than asians," wouldn't you dismiss that thought? if i were to say, "women should be subservient to their husbands," wouldn't you dismiss that thought?
I would still be curious to the reasons why someone would think this. What if there was actual scientific data to back up such an opinion? (I am not saying there is, I am saying "what if?") What if certain populations need such an attitude to survive? (Again - "what if"). It seems that an opinion held on the need for survival would have a bit more weight than one which is merely a response to Archi Bunker's tirades. Does it make it right? Not necessarily, but it makes it easier to understand.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


it just occured to me that i have to spend a great deal of time in these threads discussing myself in order to combat some of the various beliefs about homosexuality.
Do you need to defend your orientation on other topics? When we discuss the Iraq war I don't think, "Well, that's Irvine - the nice monogomous gay guy." I simply think, "That's Irvine, the intelligent but misguided and under-informed Liberal "

However, I think in threads regarding homosexuality, you would naturarally feel the need to discuss yourself. As I do in Christian related threads.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:54 PM   #230
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But after you find out the reasoning, AEON, how do you try to rationalize with these people? Do you believe it to be possible?
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:03 PM   #231
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i would like to know exactly why homosexuality is "immoral."

that's a very specific word. so i'm looking for a very specific answer.
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:28 PM   #232
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The only way "homosexuality" will cease to be immoral for religious people
is for gay people to be held to the same standard as straight people.

And that standard is sex outside of a legal , committed, monogamous relationship is immoral.


Aeon, you did say a few pages back that you do support "Civil Unions" be provided for all and "Marriage" be reserved for religious institutions.

With that in mind, would you consider people living monogamously under a Civil Union immoral?
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:11 PM   #233
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I just have to say that this is a really fascinating discussion, even viewed from the sidelines. I am in awe of your patience and eloquence, Irvine.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:12 PM   #234
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
But after you find out the reasoning, AEON, how do you try to rationalize with these people? Do you believe it to be possible?
Well, it is definitaly a challenge to rationalize with anyone with a viewpoint which is extremely different from my own. However, it is worth the effort.

As long as myself and the other person can control our emotions, I can usually have a decent, respectful discussion with people with very different viewpoints - even those that are racist or sexist. Understanding how people reach conclusions is core to solving the real issue. For instance, I disagree with most of aspects of socialism, but through discussing with socialist leaning people I now understand how people desire such a system. I still don't agree with them, but I understand it. I don't agree with racists, but I can understand how people that are having the livelyhoods threatened feel that way. You can see it almost all throughout history. As long as times a prosperous, the society is very accepting of immigrants and other cultures. However, as soon as the economy takes a turn for the worst, those races and cultures not established will be the first to get targeted.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:15 PM   #235
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Originally posted by Diemen
I just have to say that this is a really fascinating discussion, even viewed from the sidelines. I am in awe of your patience and eloquence, Irvine.
And I would like to give credit to Aeon for his willingness to participate in the discussion.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:18 PM   #236
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I admittedly have not read most of this thread, but the last page or so I just don't believe that homosexuality is a "choice" or immoral. Why does homosexuality have to always make certain groups of people think it's about sex? (the act of it, not the gender). If two men (or women) are happy together, isn't that all that matters?

sidenote:
I think part of the interesting thing about forums (this is the only one I frequent) is that you get to know people based on their responses, which in turn tells you something about them. You don't necessarily know the color of their skin, appearance, economic background, lifestyle, age, beliefs, etc. Yes, you find that out over time thru discussions, etc. I don't know where I was going with that, but it came out. I tried to point this out to my daughter the other day that she is meeting people of all ages and all walks of life from all over the world online, and judging them solely on conversing, not appearance or who is sleeping with whom.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:20 PM   #237
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I just have to say that this is a really fascinating discussion, even viewed from the sidelines. I am in awe of your patience and eloquence, Irvine.
I concur
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:22 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i would like to know exactly why homosexuality is "immoral."

that's a very specific word. so i'm looking for a very specific answer.
I use the word i"immoral" in a spiritual sense. My Biblical understanding of the topic disagrees with Melon's. I would rather not go down that path yet again. If you would like, please do a search on all of those posts I made several months ago.

Many people share Melon's interpretation. Many people (outside of interference.com) share my interpretation. I tend to believe that my own interpretation is more “objective” because I have nothing to gain or lose in the result of the research (since I am not gay). But I’m certain that Melon would think he is more objective because he is not brainwashed by the Conservative Christian scholars.

In summary, anything that misses the God’s mark is immoral. Homosexual behavior is only way of missing the target. There are many others – and I have certainly missed the mark many times in my own life.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:24 PM   #239
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oops
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:28 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

As long as myself and the other person can control our emotions, I can usually have a decent, respectful discussion with people with very different viewpoints - even those that are racist or sexist.


let me try this on you.

could you have a discussion with someone who insisted that it was immoral to be left-handed?

racism and sexism are beliefs -- for lack of a better word -- whereas a sexual orientation, like being left-handed, is an immutable condition -- for lack of a better word -- where words like "immoral" or phrases like "i disagree with" are logically absurd.

does that make sense?
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