MERGED--> He became straight + I despise... - Page 15 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-13-2007, 10:17 AM   #211
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 08:30 PM
AEON: it's 100% involuntary. it is not chosen. the phrase "if the causes is purely psychological" is complete garbage. no one but the precious Dr. Nicolosi and people like James Dobson contend this. why am i gay but my brother is straight? we grew up in the same household, same parents, same parenting values, and we share a whole lot in common. but not this.

ignoring the wild leap you're making to something like "natural selection," how is it a "disadvantage" to be a homosexual? it has existed since the beginning of time, in all cultures and societies throughout history.

this "natural selection" -- though nice to see you using science instead of prejudice and a Bible -- has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

people are homosexual. people are left-handed. there's no advantage or disadvantage to being left-handed. everyone in my family, grandparents included, are right-handed. but my brother is left-handed. everyone in my family, grandparents included, are heterosexual. but i am homosexual. my father has one cousin who was a lesbian. and my mother's cousin's son is gay.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 10:22 AM   #212
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
CTU2fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,366
Local Time: 09:30 PM
Didn't being a lefty used to signify some satanic influence or something? I swear I remember that from history class...back in the pilgrim/Puritan days, and I think they used to try to "make" them righty (tie the left hand to the chair, or beat them, or whatever).

Maybe Glatze is the gay equivalent of a lefty with his left hand tied?
__________________

__________________
CTU2fan is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 10:29 AM   #213
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 02:30 AM
It was common practice to re-educate left handed people until the 1960-somethings in some countries, such as Germany.

I'm left-handed, and who knows, maybe Satan lives inside me.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 10:30 AM   #214
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,294
Local Time: 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by CTU2fan
Didn't being a lefty used to signify some satanic influence or something? I swear I remember that from history class...back in the pilgrim/Puritan days, and I think they used to try to "make" them righty (tie the left hand to the chair, or beat them, or whatever).
When my grandmother was a child in the 1920s, she was forced to write with her right hand or she'd get hit by a stick. In art class, if she picked up a brush to paint with, they'd smack her. So she learned to write with her right hand, but she did everything else with her left. She cut meat with her left hand, ate with her left hand, reached for things with her left hand, potted plants with her left hand, etc. And her handwriting was pretty awful.

She said when her oldest daughter (born in 1950) started reaching for things with her left hand, my grandmother always gave her toys, bottles, etc into her right hand because while she didn't care that the baby was left-handed, she didn't want her to be humiliated in school like she was.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 07-13-2007, 10:32 AM   #215
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 08:30 PM
finally, let's talk a bit about what a homosexual is "for." AEON seems to think that homosexuals are useless from a biological standpoint. we can't naturally reproduce, and are therefore a disadvantage for the species.

let's stop for a moment and first understand that there's no difference bewteen a homosexual and a heterosexual who is infertile from AEONs fierce "natural selection" standpoint.

however, does society have a place for childless adults? does soceity produce more children than it can care for? can a homosexual devote more time to his/her given profession -- which is often teaching or coaching or mentoring, for example -- and that this devotion to profession or craft, something a heterosexual might not be able to do due to familiar responsibilities, is an objectively good thing? do we not all benefit from this? what about the clear evidence of homosexual men, in particular, excelling in the arts? is our world not more colorful, more interesting, more vibrant, because of homosexual men and their often unique creative capabilities? (i would argue that it's the exclusion by society at a young age pushing him into the role of observer/critic that augments a gay man's keenly discerning eye)

is difference among humans to be encouraged or discouraged? do we not all benefit by different viewpoints, different ideas, different understandings, different people in general? is human diversity an inherently good thing? what would be lost if we were all the same? if we all spoke the same language? if we all ate the same food? if we all had the same religion? would the world not only be less interesting but would we also lose a part of our humanness as well?

AEON what you've well exposed is your negative attitude towards homosexuality. you see it as a bad thing.

but ask yourself why. and ask yourself if what you've been taught is due to a superficial, aesthetic prejudice -- the way that, 50 years ago, a white southern man would have reacted to the thought of a black man having sex with a white woman -- and nothing else? that if you genuinely examine the lives and contributions of homosexuals, if you value the unique contributions offered by homosexuals due to the slightly different place in society they occupy, perhaps you'll start to see that homosexuals are a benefit to you and, yes, to your children.

perhaps your child will have an inspirational music teacher, and perhaps this teacher is so good because he is gay -- because he was exluded as a youngster and found solace in music, and he is determined to share this joy with the world, and it is his lack of children at home that enables him to channel all of his parental instincts into his students. perhaps a lesbian couple adopts a child who might have spent more years in foster care, bouncing from home to home and winding up in jail or worse. perhaps a woman in an unhappy marriage can look at the genuine equality that is achieved by same-sex couples as a model to strive to, that simply because of her gender, she isn't automatically subservient to her husband, that there's another way for a couple to function

and finally, let's get to sexuality. i think most heterosexuals agree that there is more to sex than simple reproduction. and it's the removal of the possibility of reproduction that can help us unpack the magic and mystery of the sex act, of what it does for people in loving relationships and how it helps them bond, and connect, and strengthen the bonds -- intellectual, emotional, and physical -- that hold them together.

the existence of homosexuals, in some way, lets us know that, yes, we are more than animals. that we have a point beyond the continuation of our genes. that there is logic in disorder, and magic in mystery.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 10:39 AM   #216
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

ignoring the wild leap you're making to something like "natural selection," how is it a "disadvantage" to be a homosexual? it has existed since the beginning of time, in all cultures and societies throughout history.
The evolutionary disadvantage is explained by the very definition of natural selection - as posted. (the validity of natural selection would perhaps be another discussion).

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
though nice to see you using science instead of prejudice and a Bible
I don't see science and the Bible as mutually exclusive. In most cases, I think they support each other.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 10:42 AM   #217
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
[B]

The evolutionary disadvantage is explained by the very definition of natural selection - as posted. (to validity of natural selection would perhaps be another discussion).

what's the disadvantage? that's where your prejudice begins, right there, in that assumption.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 10:56 AM   #218
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
finally, let's talk a bit about what a homosexual is "for." AEON seems to think that homosexuals are useless from a biological standpoint. we can't naturally reproduce, and are therefore a disadvantage for the species.

let's stop for a moment and first understand that there's no difference bewteen a homosexual and a heterosexual who is infertile from AEONs fierce "natural selection" standpoint.

however, does society have a place for childless adults? does soceity produce more children than it can care for? can a homosexual devote more time to his/her given profession -- which is often teaching or coaching or mentoring, for example -- and that this devotion to profession or craft, something a heterosexual might not be able to do due to familiar responsibilities, is an objectively good thing? do we not all benefit from this? what about the clear evidence of homosexual men, in particular, excelling in the arts? is our world not more colorful, more interesting, more vibrant, because of homosexual men and their often unique creative capabilities? (i would argue that it's the exclusion by society at a young age pushing him into the role of observer/critic that augments a gay man's keenly discerning eye)

is difference among humans to be encouraged or discouraged? do we not all benefit by different viewpoints, different ideas, different understandings, different people in general? is human diversity an inherently good thing? what would be lost if we were all the same? if we all spoke the same language? if we all ate the same food? if we all had the same religion? would the world not only be less interesting but would we also lose a part of our humanness as well?

AEON what you've well exposed is your negative attitude towards homosexuality. you see it as a bad thing.

but ask yourself why. and ask yourself if what you've been taught is due to a superficial, aesthetic prejudice -- the way that, 50 years ago, a white southern man would have reacted to the thought of a black man having sex with a white woman -- and nothing else? that if you genuinely examine the lives and contributions of homosexuals, if you value the unique contributions offered by homosexuals due to the slightly different place in society they occupy, perhaps you'll start to see that homosexuals are a benefit to you and, yes, to your children.

perhaps your child will have an inspirational music teacher, and perhaps this teacher is so good because he is gay -- because he was exluded as a youngster and found solace in music, and he is determined to share this joy with the world, and it is his lack of children at home that enables him to channel all of his parental instincts into his students. perhaps a lesbian couple adopts a child who might have spent more years in foster care, bouncing from home to home and winding up in jail or worse. perhaps a woman in an unhappy marriage can look at the genuine equality that is achieved by same-sex couples as a model to strive to, that simply because of her gender, she isn't automatically subservient to her husband, that there's another way for a couple to function

and finally, let's get to sexuality. i think most heterosexuals agree that there is more to sex than simple reproduction. and it's the removal of the possibility of reproduction that can help us unpack the magic and mystery of the sex act, of what it does for people in loving relationships and how it helps them bond, and connect, and strengthen the bonds -- intellectual, emotional, and physical -- that hold them together.

the existence of homosexuals, in some way, lets us know that, yes, we are more than animals. that we have a point beyond the continuation of our genes. that there is logic in disorder, and magic in mystery.
You certainly make many excellent points in this post. At the personal level, I am thankful for the diversity. I am thankful for you and the insights you have given me.

But I am also someone who tries to understand the cause and sources of societal attitudes (even prejudices). I want to know why God forbids it (yes, even if it is only Male Temple Prostitution or Male on Male Rape as Ormus would argue. Why is this immoral? How does this hurt society?). I want to know why a group of heterosexual men will stand around and make fun of feminine qualities. Is this bad? Good? Neutral? Necessary at some level? Is such a behavior completely wrong or is there a evolutionary need for humans to have a percentage of men built that way? Is part of the diversity you speak of include men and women who see homosexuality as bad because they think universally (meaning - if everyone was gay...etc)? These are just some questions. I don't claim to have all of the answers.

However, why should we dismiss entire groups of people as simply bigoted? Do you like to be dismissed simply because you are a liberal? Don't you post here because you think there is value in what you say?

I am not some ignorant automaton. Like you, I am a well read, educated, thoughtful, and (believe it or not) compassionate person. Perhaps there is something you can learn from me - as I have learned from you.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 11:05 AM   #219
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,294
Local Time: 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


However, why should we dismiss entire groups of people as simply bigoted?
How would we deal with a group of people who maintains that blacks are an inferior race? Who support it with research re: IQ levels or earning potential tables? Who believe that segregation is necessary because it is immoral and disadvantageous to our society to have blacks and whites mixing blood? Who wonder whether there is a necessity or social benefit to white men standing around, making fun of nappy hair?

Would you not say this group of people is bigoted?
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 07-13-2007, 11:08 AM   #220
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 08:30 PM
why would a group of white people sit around and make fun of black people? why would a group of heterosexual men sit around and make fun of women? is this bad? good? neutral? necessary at some level?

would we not dismiss these people as racist and sexist?

i believe you are an educated, thoughtful, and compassionate person. but i also think that you're subjected to the same prejudices as everyone else, and i also think that you use religion to justify some of these prejudices, and then try to make science buttress the existing prejudice.

i guess i don't know why i have to explain myself when a black person or a woman would never have to "explain" in the same manner.

but i am happy to do so. because i have to.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 11:41 AM   #221
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
I want to know why God forbids it (yes, even if it is only Male Temple Prostitution or Male on Male Rape as Ormus would argue. Why is this immoral? How does this hurt society?).
Is this even a question? Prostitution is unloving sex, as is rape. Rape is also using sex to show power over someone. They are both very immoral. And have nothing to do with homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
I am a well read, educated, thoughtful, and (believe it or not) compassionate person. Perhaps there is something you can learn from me - as I have learned from you.
I can see that you are. But try to understand this. As Ormus said, scientists agree that is not a choice. Unfortunately, because they want to find the exact combination of genes, it is technically still under "dispute." Those who are against homosexuals have jumped on this and used it to spread ignorance. Many people, as you stated yourself earlier in the thread, believe the entire issue is still in dispute, when in reality it is only the details. This is because of those people who don't want to acknowledge the truth. They want to continue to be bigoted. There are so many that are set in their beliefs because of misinterpretations of the Bible which were shoved down their throats, that they don't want to give up. That or they just hate homosexuals. But all of these people are ignoring the most important thing in the entire debate:

It is a fact. Homosexuality is not a choice.
__________________
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 12:18 PM   #222
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
why would a group of white people sit around and make fun of black people? why would a group of heterosexual men sit around and make fun of women? is this bad? good? neutral? necessary at some level?

would we not dismiss these people as racist and sexist?

i believe you are an educated, thoughtful, and compassionate person. but i also think that you're subjected to the same prejudices as everyone else, and i also think that you use religion to justify some of these prejudices, and then try to make science buttress the existing prejudice.

i guess i don't know why i have to explain myself when a black person or a woman would never have to "explain" in the same manner.

but i am happy to do so. because i have to.
While I also apply the label of "racist" to these folks, that doesn't mean I dismiss them as people or completely ignore everything they have to say. With such people - I am still interested to know WHY they think this way or that way. Perhaps somewhere along the line racism (or various forms of it) was necessary for tribes to survive. Perhaps.

The point is this - I think people should be free to express these views even if they are not seen as politically correct in this day and age. Even better if they can offer up their views in a non-combatitive and non-hostile environment.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 12:28 PM   #223
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

While I also apply the label of "racist" to these folks, that doesn't mean I dismiss them as people or completely ignore everything they have to say. With such people - I am still interested to know WHY they think this way or that way. Perhaps somewhere along the line racism (or various forms of it) was necessary for tribes to survive. Perhaps.


would you dismiss the racism itself, though? i agree that where racism comes from is a good thing, and i'd agree with that about homophobia and sexism (which i actually think is the most interesting).

but it's the attitudes expressed that are simply false and not worthy of debate, no? blacks aren't all criminals, women shouldn't be treated like sexual recepticles, and gays have no choice in their sexual orientation.


Quote:
The point is this - I think people should be free to express these views even if they are not seen as politically correct in this day and age. Even better if they can offer up their views in a non-combatitive and hostile environment.
i agree that people should be free to express any views they want, but isn't the expression of a racist, sexist, or homophobic view going to likely engender a combative and hostile response?

thus, debating the orgins of racism vs. debating the validity of a racist viewpoint are two very differnet things.

if i said to you that all Christians were sexist racist homophobic fascists and that their religion was deomonstrably wrong and that Jesus Christ was little more than some charismatic Jewish carpenter who was little more than a pest at the time so the Romans squashed him like the little bug he was, is that not going to engender a passionate response? if i said that white people were the devil, or that each and every person who had sex before they were married was going to hell, would that not engender a passionate response?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 01:14 PM   #224
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


I thought the scientific community is still debating the causes/origins of homosexuality.

Also, if it is not a "choice" - are you then insisting that it is a birth defect? A genetic mutation?
Variation within a population is the engine of survival.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 07-13-2007, 01:15 PM   #225
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
would you dismiss the racism itself, though? i agree that where racism comes from is a good thing, and i'd agree with that about homophobia and sexism (which i actually think is the most interesting).

but it's the attitudes expressed that are simply false and not worthy of debate, no? blacks aren't all criminals, women shouldn't be treated like sexual recepticles, and gays have no choice in their sexual orientation.
I don’t dismiss racism. I don’t agree with it, but I don’t dismiss it because it is such a powerful force. I think if it is to ever be defeated, if it can be, the cause of it must be understood. One simply cannot dismiss racist as something only ignorant white trash subscribe to. I have heard racist statements and witnesses racist attitudes from just about every class in society. The same with “homophobia” and sexism.

Also, as with all things, there are varying degrees of attitudes. You may consider me homophobic because I believe homosexuality is immoral, but I would consider it an honor to risk my life for you. There are other “homophobes” that would just rather see you dead. Just as you do not like to be lumped into a group considered ignoramuses, neither do I.
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i agree that people should be free to express any views they want, but isn't the expression of a racist, sexist, or homophobic view going to likely engender a combative and hostile response?
They don’t have to. This is an area I am personally working on. I am learning to see the value in other opinions, even when they are quite different from my own. That doesn’t make them true – but it certainly creates a more productive dialogue.
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

thus, debating the orgins of racism vs. debating the validity of a racist viewpoint are two very differnet things.

I agree. But I consider both worthy discussions.
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

if i said to you that all Christians were sexist racist homophobic fascists and that their religion was deomonstrably wrong and that Jesus Christ was little more than some charismatic Jewish carpenter who was little more than a pest at the time so the Romans squashed him like the little bug he was, is that not going to engender a passionate response? if i said that white people were the devil, or that each and every person who had sex before they were married was going to hell, would that not engender a passionate response?

Well, I have heard that quite a bit over the years. It is certainly inferred by many posts here in FYM. The key, as always, is to respond with grace. Not easy. I admit. And I have failed often. But I believe that either side of a discussion have something to learn from the other. And I don’t necessarily mean gathering ammunition for the next debate. I mean the ability to empathize with those that hold even the most extreme views.
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com