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Old 07-13-2007, 12:28 AM   #196
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Hearing a lie enough times makes you believe it. If you can lie to yourself, it's easy to lie to other people.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:37 AM   #197
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OK, but what are your opinions on the fact that housing and employment discrimination against gay people is legal in 32 states, or that more than a thousand federal rights available to married heterosexuals and their families are categorically denied to longterm gay and lesbian couples and any children they may have?
I'd still like to hear an answer to this, from anyone who responds to the case for equal rights by saying that homosexual behavior is immoral. Not what are your foundations for holding that belief, not why do you believe that being gay is merely a choice...just, why is it that you're OK with all the anguish and loss and vulnerability that results from the legal applications of that belief--losing your job or your home, not being able to be with your dying partner in the hospital, no joint parenting rights to their biological children whom you love and are helping to raise, no right of inheritance to property you've shared together for decades, no right to have your partner whom you met and fell in love with while living abroad immigrate here to join you, etc., etc., etc. Because where no protected means of access (anti-discrimination laws, marriage) to those things exists, there can be no redress when they're denied. And there's no reasoning beyond "It's immoral" holding this state of affairs in place, no other reason why politicians need fear for their careers should they seek to change it. What quantifiable harm have gay people done to others that they deserve such vulnerability?
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:41 AM   #198
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I've got 2 confessions. I'm a Christiaphobe and phillyfan is my hero.


Guess which of these sentences is sincere.

... Actually, they both are.
I'm really a Christiaphobe. I've decided not to try and change this, though. I've been battling it for a good few years. I know a great number of Christians and non Christians and there's great things in all of them. I just don't like the beliefs of Christians. They and their beliefs make my skin crawl. One of my greatest friends is Christian (this is a disclaimer statement, for those wondering why I keep harping on about friends whom none of you have met), so I know it is not them personally. I just cannot stomach their beliefs. Their beliefs make me sick. It's vile, it's hate filled, it's unloving, it's ungodly. I don't hate them, though. I really don't. I've never not be friends with one. I'd never support sanctioned discrimination. Never.

I'm a Christiaphobe, and phillyfan is awesome.

Anna.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:47 AM   #199
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Doesn't the fact that he even wrote such an article prove there is a debate?
I could write an article proclaiming myself Japanese. I could tell you I prayed about it, that I've sought counseling to overcome my whiteness, and that I no longer consider myself white. I could point out that acquaintances have frequently thought I had a Japanese parent due to the shape of my eyes. In the article, I could carry on about how God helped me see the immorality of my earlier choice to be white, and now I'm right with Him as a Japanese person.

But all that still wouldn't indicate there's a debate about the choice to be white.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:54 AM   #200
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and have been in a four year monogamous relationship--
On a side note, I was just thinking of this a few days ago; remembering when you started this relationship and how you were concerned about long-distance relationships and their success. I can't tell you how happy I am to see that it's working out for you two.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:54 AM   #201
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Not to mention the fact that even if sexual orientation were 100% voluntary it still isn't anybody else's damned business...
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:41 AM   #202
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That being said, doesn't a self-proclaimed recovered homosexual, whether you like him or not, qualify as someone that can offer an opinion that the behavior is in fact - a choice? Doesn't the fact that he even wrote such an article prove there is a debate?
No. And I'll tell you why. I can go on the internet today and find detailed essays on why the Holocaust never existed, and that it's just a Jewish conspiracy to extort money and sympathy from the West. I can go on the internet today and find an essay proclaiming that we never landed on the moon in 1969, and they will outline detailed "evidence" as to why this never happened.

In other words, the source of this "debate" means everything. Why is it that only neo-Nazis deny the Holocaust, while the entire scientific and historical community wholeheartedly agree that it did, in fact, exist? Why is it, when it comes to insisting that homosexuality is "a choice" that it always originates from religious groups with a pre-existing hatred of it, while the entire scientific community agrees that it's not?

This comes back to what I said earlier in this thread:

Conservative Christians do not get to set the rules.

You can find stories of "self-proclaimed recovered homosexuals" on extremist Christian websites just like you can find stories of converted Jews to Islam, who then confess that, before their conversion, they did, in fact, kill and drink the blood of Muslim infants on extremist Muslim websites. These sites don't exist for homosexuals or Jews; they exist for one reason: to dehumanize and to reinforce misunderstanding and hatred of a traditional enemy at any and all costs. Then these conservative Christians and Muslims can march through life passing off all their problems on other people, never once realizing that they need to change themselves. Gosh...all these unwed mothers and divorces in this country? It must be caused by homosexuals....yes, that must be it. Gosh...I'm living in a country with 50% unemployment run by an autocratic despot who has left our country impoverished. It must be caused by the Jews...yes, that must be it.

That's why there's no debate.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:04 AM   #203
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:32 AM   #204
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Originally posted by yolland

I'd still like to hear an answer to this, from anyone who responds to the case for equal rights by saying that homosexual behavior is immoral. Not what are your foundations for holding that belief, not why do you believe that being gay is merely a choice...just, why is it that you're OK with all the anguish and loss and vulnerability that results from the legal applications of that belief--losing your job or your home, not being able to be with your dying partner in the hospital, no joint parenting rights to their biological children whom you love and are helping to raise, no right of inheritance to property you've shared together for decades, no right to have your partner whom you met and fell in love with while living abroad immigrate here to join you, etc., etc., etc. Because where no protected means of access (anti-discrimination laws, marriage) to those things exists, there can be no redress when they're denied. And there's no reasoning beyond "It's immoral" holding this state of affairs in place, no other reason why politicians need fear for their careers should they seek to change it. What quantifiable harm have gay people done to others that they deserve such vulnerability?
Well, I certainly don't advocate denying apartments or jobs to gays. I don't personally know of anyone who would agree with this. If it is still on the books, these laws should be removed.

As far rights pertaining to married couples - I think the whole system is out of whack. From the "marriage penalty" in the tax system to the debate on who can legally marry. Personally, I advocate more of a divide between marriage and state. Leave marriage up to the churches and other institutions. Everything else should be a simple, legal note that people voluntarily sign.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:36 AM   #205
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If it is still on the books, these laws should be removed.
Make sure to let your legislators know how you feel.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:38 AM   #206
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Originally posted by Ormus


Why is it, when it comes to insisting that homosexuality is "a choice" that it always originates from religious groups with a pre-existing hatred of it, while the entire scientific community agrees that it's not?

I thought the scientific community is still debating the causes/origins of homosexuality.

Also, if it is not a "choice" - are you then insisting that it is a birth defect? A genetic mutation?
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:51 AM   #207
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Originally posted by AEON
I thought the scientific community is still debating the causes/origins of homosexuality.

Also, if it is not a "choice" - are you then insisting that it is a birth defect? A genetic mutation?
There's a difference on debating the fine details and debating whether something exists or not.

The Theory of Evolution is still heavily debated in science, but there's no question that it exists. There's far too much scientific evidence to support it, but, as you'd expect from academics, they are busy bickering over the fine details. The Theory of Gravity is under far more debate than you'd first imagine; but it's not a question of whether gravity exists, but how it exists.

The same goes for the origin of sexuality--I say this, because researchers don't even know the specific genetic triggers that cause heterosexuality (presuming that it's all about testicles/ovaries, XY/XX chromosomes, and testosterone/estrogen is overly simplistic and doesn't explain it at all). But while they're debating the "how" question, there's certain things that they know for sure:

It's not a choice.

This conclusion is now over 30 years old, and further evidence has only supported this conclusion. Now as for why it's not a choice? That's where researchers are busy. They know the answer to the equation; it's a question of understanding the reasoning behind it.

As for whether it's a genetic mutation (remembering that "mutation" is, in scientific terms, value-neutral; each person has, on average, at least eight mutations at birth), the evidence seems to be pointing that its genetic basis is related to questions of why left-handed people exist, etc. But these are certainly the kinds of questions that science wishes to resolve, and once they are able to understand how and why something like this exists, we will most certainly benefit from a greater understanding of what makes us human, as a whole.
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:00 AM   #208
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Originally posted by AEON

While Irvine and Ormus/Melon have certainly opened my heart to their beliefs on this matter, they have not yet changed my mind as to whether or not homosexual behavior is immoral.


Achtung!

is having sex before you're married, Stephen, immoral?
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:04 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Also, if it is not a "choice" - are you then insisting that it is a birth defect? A genetic mutation?


if we could determine, based on genetics, which babies would turn out to be gay or not, would you abort your potentially gay baby?

(and this sums up a whole lot -- being gay = being defective; that's a world of Christian compassion for you)
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:09 AM   #210
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Originally posted by Ormus


There's a difference on debating the fine details and debating whether something exists or not.

The Theory of Evolution is still heavily debated in science, but there's no question that it exists. There's far too much scientific evidence to support it, but, as you'd expect from academics, they are busy bickering over the fine details. The Theory of Gravity is under far more debate than you'd first imagine; but it's not a question of whether gravity exists, but how it exists.

The same goes for the origin of sexuality--I say this, because researchers don't even know the specific genetic triggers that cause heterosexuality (presuming that it's all about testicles/ovaries, XY/XX chromosomes, and testosterone/estrogen is overly simplistic and doesn't explain it at all). But while they're debating the "how" question, there's certain things that they know for sure:

It's not a choice.

This conclusion is now over 30 years old, and further evidence has only supported this conclusion. Now as for why it's not a choice? That's where researchers are busy. They know the answer to the equation; it's a question of understanding the reasoning behind it.

As for whether it's a genetic mutation (remembering that "mutation" is, in scientific terms, value-neutral; each person has, on average, at least eight mutations at birth), the evidence seems to be pointing that its genetic basis is related to questions of why left-handed people exist, etc. But these are certainly the kinds of questions that science wishes to resolve, and once they are able to understand how and why something like this exists, we will most certainly benefit from a greater understanding of what makes us human, as a whole.
Understanding the cause is still important. If the cause is purely psychological - then it would be possible for people to address it and "cure" it there. If it is purely genetic, then I suppose it opens up the debate of Natural Selection. Meaning, it is a decisively genetic disadvantage to be a homosexual and that the societies and cultures inherently understand this and perhaps that is why they tend to react negatively toward it.

Natural Selection Requires...

For natural selection to occur, two requirements are essential:

1.There must be heritable variation for some trait. Examples: beak size, color pattern, thickness of skin, fleetness.

2.There must be differential survival and reproduction associated with the possession of that trait.

Unless both these requirements are met, adaptation by natural selection cannot occur.

SOURCE: Natural Selection
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