MERGED==> French Riots + a French Intifada? - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-07-2005, 05:30 PM   #91
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 06:01 PM
[Q]Paris Burning: How Empires End
by Patrick J. Buchanan
Posted Nov 7, 2005

The Romans conquered the barbarians—and the barbarians conquered Rome.

So it goes with empires. And comes now the penultimate chapter in the history of the empires of the West.

This is the larger meaning of the ritual murder of Theo Van Gogh in Holland, the subway bombings in London, the train bombings in Madrid, the Paris riots spreading across France. The perpetrators of these crimes in the capitals of Europe are the children of immigrants who were once the colonial subjects of the European empires.

At this writing, the riots are entering their 12th night and have spread to Rouen, Lille, Marseille, Toulouse, Dijon, Bordeaux, Strasbourg, Cannes, Nice. Thousands of cars and buses have been torched and several nursery schools fire-bombed. One fleeing and terrified woman was doused with gasoline and set ablaze.

The rioters are of Arab and African descent, and Muslim. While almost all are French citizens, they are not part of the French people. For never have they been assimilated into French culture or society. And some wish to remain who and what they are. They live in France but are not French.
The rampage began October 27 when two Arab youths, fleeing what they mistakenly thought was a police pursuit, leapt onto power lines and were electrocuted. The two deaths ignited the riots.

Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy, a candidate to succeed President Chirac, is said to have infuriated and inflamed the rioters. Before the rampage began, he promised “war without mercy” on crime in the teeming suburbs where unemployment runs at 20% and income is 40% below the national average. He has denounced the rioters as “scum” and “rabble.”

Like the urban riots in America in the 1960s, which the Kerner Commission blamed on “white racism,” Paris’s riots are being blamed on France’s failure to bring Islamic immigrants into the social and economic mainstream of the nation. Solutions being offered range from voting rights for non-citizens to affirmative action in hiring for the children of Third World immigrants.

To understand why this is unlikely to solve France’s crisis, consider how America succeeded, and often failed, in solving her own racial crisis.
While, as late as the 1950s, black Americans were not integrated fully into our economy or society, they had been assimilated into American culture.

They worshipped the same God, spoke the same language, had endured the same Depression and war, listened to the same music and radio, watched the same TV shows, laughed at the same comedians, went to the same movies, ate the same foods, read the same books, magazines and newspapers, and went to schools where, even when they were segregated, they learned the same history.

We were divided, but we were also one nation and one people. Black folks were as American as apple pie, having lived in our common land longer than almost every other ethnic group save Native Americans. And America had a history of having assimilated immigrants in the tens of millions from Europe.

But no European nation has ever assimilated a large body of immigrant peoples, let alone people of color. Moreover, the African and Islamic peoples pouring into Europe—there are 20 million there now—are, unlike black Americans, strangers in a new land, and millions wish to remain proud Algerians, Muslims, Moroccans.

These newcomers worship a different God and practice a faith historically hostile to Christianity, a traditionalist faith that is rising again and recoils violently from a secular culture saturated in sex.

Severed from the civilization and cultures of their parents, these Arab and Muslim youth may hold French citizenship and carry French passports, but they are no more French than Americans who live in Paris are French. Searching for a community to which they can truly belong, they gravitate to mosques where the imams, many themselves immigrants, teach and preach that the West is not their true home, but a civilization alien to their values and historically hostile to their nations and Islam.

The soaring Muslim population is a Fifth Column inside Europe.

Nevertheless, their numbers must grow. For not only do they have a higher birth rate than the native-born Europeans, no European nation, save Moslem Albania, has a birth rate (2.1 births per woman) that will enable it to endure for many more generations. The West is aging, shrinking, and dying.

Yet, to keep Europe’s economy growing and taxes coming in to fund the health and pension programs of Europe’s rising numbers of retired and elderly, Europe needs scores of millions of new workers. And Europe can only find them in the Third World.

Nor should Americans take comfort in France’s distress. By 2050, there will be 100 million Hispanics in the United States, half of them of Mexican ancestry, heavily concentrated in a Southwest most Mexicans still believe by right belongs to them.

Colonization of the mother countries by subject peoples is the last chapter in the history of empires—and the next chapter in the history of the West—that is now coming to a close.

Mr. Buchanan is a nationally syndicated columnist and author of
[/Q]

Does he make sense on this issue?
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 11-07-2005, 05:42 PM   #92
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 12:01 AM

Double post
__________________

__________________
DrTeeth is online now  
Old 11-07-2005, 05:50 PM   #93
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 12:01 AM

I think this is much more a social problem than a religious one, and in line of that, I think the author misses the target by mentioning the riots in the same breath as bombings and the Van Gogh murder. In fact the only religious note I have heard is the fatwa that's been issued by (I think) one of the largest Muslim groups in France against the riots.

On the issue on 'integration' (whatever that may be), at least one Dutch commitee researched the integration issue in the Netherlands and concluded that the bulk of the immigrants and their descents were suprisingly well integrated without practically any help from the government and in a time in which the issue of immigration was barely on the public radar. The problem seems to be mostly the youth who are torn between the traditional values in their home and the liberal public life and who are often an easy target for radicalisation. If we manage to get a grip on that, I'm pretty sure 95% (and yes, this is an arbitrary number ) of the problems can be solved.
__________________
DrTeeth is online now  
Old 11-07-2005, 09:37 PM   #94
Acrobat
 
Tarvark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 447
Local Time: 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


'Abject segregated poverty' - I don't agree Tarvark, they are financially better off in France than they would be in their home countries. I do think that A_Wanderer might have a point in regard to France's excessive social welfare provisioning.

The Muslims in France, as in other European countries, should make greater efforts to integrate. Might not be PC to say it, but there you go.
There is a difference between a country with 40% unemplyment sitting and watching the rich grow and prosper, then a country were poverty is closer to the norm.

Assimilation is not as easy as you think especailly with such a relgion as Islam. Plus in reading BBC today it seems many seem to harbor the thoughts and in some cases evidence that there is much open racism and opposition to them being there. Its hard to fight agianst a tide like that.
__________________
Tarvark is offline  
Old 11-07-2005, 11:08 PM   #95
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by MissMaCo
Indeed, an old man was killed. He was attacked by ONE guy, and it wasn't during a riot. They were neighbours, and the young man attacked the old man after they quarrelled about a bin or something.

Really? Wow, our reports differ. In our national news, they showed the wife of the guy, and she blamed Sarkozy and the police for her husband´s death.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-07-2005, 11:12 PM   #96
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
I think this is much more a social problem than a religious one, and in line of that, I think the author misses the target by mentioning the riots in the same breath as bombings and the Van Gogh murder.
True.

Equating the protestors with terrorists - another nice detail in media policy. Well what can you expect of someone called Buchanan..

This is a social problem of integration, not a religious one.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-07-2005, 11:36 PM   #97
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
No, indeed. But you usually can reason with people before they riot. We ignore these people until this is all they have left

Very true.

The French government wouldnt have given a shit for the immigrants for another twenty years.

Sad to see, but reality is that in the 21st century peaceful protests will not have any effect. 100,000s of people on the streets who protested against the war didn´t have an effect. Same when 100,000 go on the streets to advocate social justice.

It seems that peaceful protest time is over. Our so-called democratic leaders, who should represent their country, will not react if there is no violence. That´s part of the strategy. When there are riots, use police force to crash them. When the riots get heavy, we have a problem. Well, not a big one, mind you.. Sarkozy could authorize the police to shoot a few protestors down. Has already happened in other demos, might also happen here.

I am so much for peaceful protest that it saddens me deeply to get another proof its over.

The world has changed. To be in the front line of the battle is hard.

No one notices white flags anymore. Instead, people who initiate peaceful protest, are booed, "accused" of being hippies, of being naive, either ridiculed or completely ignored. Violence will get bad press, but ensures media attention.

As long as politicians brush off peaceful protests because they don´t give a shit and are not affected by them , what is the alternative for the protestors in order to force them to react?
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-08-2005, 03:00 AM   #98
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 01:01 AM
For those who speak french, there are interesting blogs at http://bouna93.skyblog.com/index.html and http://banlieue93.skyblog.com/ (see the comments)

Lots of blogs were shut down. At the ones running, you will find everything from criticism against the protesters, criticism against the police, and about setting cars on fire and fucking the justice and the police (nlp as in "nique la police")

also a flic by Reuters can be found at http://www.lemonde.fr/web/vi/0,47-0@...-705645,0.html
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-08-2005, 08:32 AM   #99
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
lady luck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,447
Local Time: 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
For those who speak french, there are interesting blogs at http://bouna93.skyblog.com/index.html and http://banlieue93.skyblog.com/ (see the comments)

Lots of blogs were shut down. At the ones running, you will find everything from criticism against the protesters, criticism against the police, and about setting cars on fire and fucking the justice and the police (nlp as in "nique la police")

also a flic by Reuters can be found at http://www.lemonde.fr/web/vi/0,47-0@...-705645,0.html
Merci, whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

It's impressive reading words from a person that is there and know the people involved in this chaos.
The pages about the two young boys dead ... ù

Hope a solution could be find, even if I realize that it's not easy and the problem seems to be enormous.

I am afraid more or less the same will happen here in Italy, too, and soon.
We've been already experimenting troubles with the Muslim community and I was shocked when I heard the comments Italian have for migrants... things that sometimes make me feel ashame of being Italian...
__________________
lady luck is offline  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:35 AM   #100
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by lady luck

I was shocked when I heard the comments Italian have for migrants... things that sometimes make me feel ashame of being Italian...
Yeah, racism is also going strong in Italy. I realized that in Milan a couple of years ago.. however, I think my country still beats y´all in terms of racism and xenophobia. Where´s Bossi at with the Lega, by the way? Always disliked this guy..

I´m wating for Marie´s next comments/ update. It´s so interesting to hear about the situation in France... I hope no one will get hurt anymore. Sarkozy should resign in order to avoid even more violence.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:37 AM   #101
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Sarkozy should resign in order to avoid even more violence.

I entirely disagree. For Sarkozy to resign would mean a surrender to thuggery. He is probably the most talented French politician of his generation and certainly preferable to that pompous idiot Chirac.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:52 AM   #102
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy



I entirely disagree. For Sarkozy to resign would mean a surrender to thuggery. He is probably the most talented French politician of his generation and certainly preferable to that pompous idiot Chirac.
I disagree. I will not go into details about Sarkozy´s personality. When riots like this break out, however, and an interior minister is incapable of controlling them, of taking away some tension, but fuels the fire with heated remarks, its time for him to go.

He will not resign, that´s the problem. Politicians hold on to their priviledges.

WHATS HAPPENING IS A SHAME FOR THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT.

You see, my own country, Austria, didn´t have the style I´m talking about. Our interior minister, Löschnak, did not resign after an immigrant was killed by police.

Whatever one thinks of Sarkozy personally, this man should resign because he is the ultimate responsible. An interior minister that lets the riots explode instead of extinguishing the fire, has no right and no democratic legitimation in a modern western government.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 11-08-2005, 10:06 AM   #103
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 06:01 PM
had heard that riots are spreading into Brussels?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 11-08-2005, 10:16 AM   #104
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
had heard that riots are spreading into Brussels?
I think a handful of cars were torched in Brussels and Berlin. Sounds like a rather unsuccessful attempt to spread the riots by a few people.
__________________
DrTeeth is online now  
Old 11-08-2005, 10:18 AM   #105
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 01:01 AM
I dont know about the situation in Belgium. I heard that too; there were some cars burning in Berlin yesterday. I hope and think that´s more in the directon of some isolated singular action.
__________________

__________________
hiphop is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com