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Old 11-06-2005, 04:08 PM   #46
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Originally posted by melon
If 30% of these people are unemployed and they were brought in, originally, as temporary labor, why can't they be deported back, since they are no longer needed?
Surely mass deporations such as this are impractical for all kinds of political, pragmatic and moral reasons.

I know that German brought in lots of 'Gastarbeiter' - guest workers - from the 1950's onwards. Many from Turkey. Though there have been tensions between the immigrants and natives, it doesn't seem to have led to a situation as bad as in France (to date).
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Old 11-06-2005, 05:35 PM   #47
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1300 cars last night alone. That's alot.

It's sort of interesting to see how different parts of Europe are handling immigrants...
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Old 11-06-2005, 06:35 PM   #48
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if there is anyone to blame, it is the French politicians who have been ignoring the problems in the banlieus for the last 15 years. The banlieu situation - the problematic situation there - was already described in my french lessons, and thats 14 years ago.

I think it is the first big direct violent reaction to the direct impact of (the EU version of) neo-liberal politics. We all knew cities were gonna burn at some point. This is just the start.
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Old 11-06-2005, 07:04 PM   #49
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I think Europe is the next stage for terrorism/ehtnic conflicts. With about 7 million muslims living in abject segregated poverty in France alone, I am suprised this is just happening now.
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Old 11-06-2005, 07:47 PM   #50
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
I think it is the first big direct violent reaction to the direct impact of (the EU version of) neo-liberal politics. We all knew cities were gonna burn at some point. This is just the start.

And what precisely would you advocate as an alternative to 'neo-liberal politics', as you call them?
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Old 11-06-2005, 07:51 PM   #51
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Originally posted by Tarvark
I think Europe is the next stage for terrorism/ehtnic conflicts. With about 7 million muslims living in abject segregated poverty in France alone, I am suprised this is just happening now.
'Abject segregated poverty' - I don't agree Tarvark, they are financially better off in France than they would be in their home countries. I do think that A_Wanderer might have a point in regard to France's excessive social welfare provisioning.

The Muslims in France, as in other European countries, should make greater efforts to integrate. Might not be PC to say it, but there you go.
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Old 11-06-2005, 07:51 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Tarvark
I think Europe is the next stage for terrorism/ehtnic conflicts. With about 7 million muslims living in abject segregated poverty in France alone, I am suprised this is just happening now.
ethnic conflict in Europe? never...
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Old 11-06-2005, 07:59 PM   #53
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Originally posted by financeguy

The Muslims in France, as in other European countries, should make greater efforts to integrate. Might not be PC to say it, but there you go.

When Europeans go to Muslim countries, we respect their traditions.

I don't think it's asking too much for Muslims to do the same.
You probably have a point (although it's definitely not PC ).

I have to wonder, if anyone has any perspective on this...are the conditions for African immigrants in France better or worse in general than for (mainly) Mexicans coming to the US?
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Old 11-06-2005, 08:05 PM   #54
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Originally posted by VertigoGal
I have to wonder, if anyone has any perspective on this...are the conditions for African immigrants in France better or worse in general than for (mainly) Mexicans coming to the US?

Mexicans coming to the US have to work, otherwise they'll starve.

Immigrants into France in many cases are living on state handouts. It's the unfortunate legacy of France's particular brand of socialism and state dependency. I don't blame the immigrants at all - but the rioters are thugs, as Sarkovy rightly described them. It's a measure of political correctness gone mad if a duly appointed government minister of France can't call a spade a spade.

And the excuses being put forward by 2 or 3 posters in this thread for violent thuggery are truly disturbing.
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Old 11-06-2005, 08:09 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Surely mass deporations such as this are impractical for all kinds of political, pragmatic and moral reasons.

I know that German brought in lots of 'Gastarbeiter' - guest workers - from the 1950's onwards. Many from Turkey. Though there have been tensions between the immigrants and natives, it doesn't seem to have led to a situation as bad as in France (to date).
I've known dozens of people like that in Germany and I'd say their financial status and living conditions are considerably higher than those of the North Africans in France. So while they may experience bigotry and racism in Germany, they're not slumming it, or at least not to the same extent.
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Old 11-06-2005, 08:18 PM   #56
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GRIGNY, France, Nov 7 (Reuters) - Rioters fired shots at police and set hundreds of cars ablaze in an 11th night of violence in France on Monday, hours after President Jacques Chirac vowed to restore order.

Ten policemen were injured, two of them seriously, when a group of youths fired at police with shotguns in Grigny, south of Paris, police said. One officer was treated with lead shot wounds to the throat, another suffered injuries to one leg.

"They really shot at officers. This is real, serious violence. It's not like the previous nights. I am very concerned because this is mounting," one police officer said.
link

If they get riots when two people manage to electrocute themselves imagine the situation when the police or military actually kill one of them.
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Old 11-06-2005, 08:19 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy



Mexicans coming to the US have to work, otherwise they'll starve.

Immigrants into France in many cases are living on state handouts. It's the unfortunate legacy of France's particular brand of socialism and state dependency. I don't blame the immigrants at all - but the rioters are thugs, as Sarkovy rightly described them. It's a measure of political correctness gone mad if a duly appointed government minister of France can't call a spade a spade.
Right...living off the dole probably doesn't do much for a man's motivation or state of mind in general.

And I have to agree with you on the thugs who are perpetrating these riots. Going around smashing storefronts and burning cars in their own, or any, neighborhood is not an acceptable form of protest. The "society has failed them" argument only goes so far. I'm going to take the un-PCness to a whole new level, and suggest that certain elements within Islam are attracting disaffected young French Muslims who feel caught between cultures, and encouraging that they view themselves as separate, as outsiders. Would that be a fair assessment?
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Old 11-06-2005, 08:22 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
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If they get riots when two people manage to electrocute themselves imagine the situation when the police or military actually kill one of them.
which could be soon if they keep firing live rounds at cops.
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Old 11-06-2005, 08:24 PM   #59
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Steyn takes a more pessimistic line on all of this, marks for consistency though he has been in there advocating "Eurabian civil war" for quite some time
Quote:
Ever since 9/11, I've been gloomily predicting the European powder keg's about to go up. ''By 2010 we'll be watching burning buildings, street riots and assassinations on the news every night,'' I wrote in Canada's Western Standard back in February.

Silly me. The Eurabian civil war appears to have started some years ahead of my optimistic schedule. As Thursday's edition of the Guardian reported in London: ''French youths fired at police and burned over 300 cars last night as towns around Paris experienced their worst night of violence in a week of urban unrest.''

''French youths,'' huh? You mean Pierre and Jacques and Marcel and Alphonse? Granted that most of the "youths" are technically citizens of the French Republic, it doesn't take much time in les banlieus of Paris to discover that the rioters do not think of their primary identity as ''French'': They're young men from North Africa growing ever more estranged from the broader community with each passing year and wedded ever more intensely to an assertive Muslim identity more implacable than anything you're likely to find in the Middle East. After four somnolent years, it turns out finally that there really is an explosive ''Arab street,'' but it's in Clichy-sous-Bois.
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Old 11-06-2005, 08:28 PM   #60
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Congratulations A_Wanderer. You've just ruined a perfectly decent debate by bringing Mark Fascist Steyn into it.

Well done.
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