MERGED==> French Riots + a French Intifada?

[A_Wanderer]

Fascist, interesting enough, why?

"We feel rejected, compared to the kids who live in better neighborhoods,” said Nasim, a chunky 16-year-old with braces and acne. “Everything here is broken down and abandoned ..."

"We don’t have the American dream here,” said Rezzoug, as he surveyed the clusters of young men. “We don’t even have the French dream here."

Well that proves it, I think we all know who's really responsible for this dissolusion, they are just victims of American propaganda
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA...3Z_01_MAR227625_RTRUKOC_0_US-FRANCE-RIOTS.xml

 

[anitram]

Mark Steyn is journalistic excrement at its best. I cringe anytime I see his name.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Yes but is he a fascist and if so why?

 

[anitram]

Well I didn't call him that so I'm not really sure what the basis of financeguy's assertion is.

As a journalist, he's an embarrassment. Relegated to such right wing pieces of trash like the National (Com)Post.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Are opinion piece writers really journalists?

 

[anitram]

Journalists with an opinion.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Well all journalists have opinion, just read a BBC newsfeed

 

[DrTeeth]

'Abject segregated poverty' - I don't agree Tarvark, they are financially better off in France than they would be in their home countries. I do think that A_Wanderer might have a point in regard to France's excessive social welfare provisioning.

The Muslims in France, as in other European countries, should make greater efforts to integrate. Might not be PC to say it, but there you go.

I think this is a rather simplistic view. Most of these rioters seem to be 2nd generation immigrants who grew up there, have a decent education and who speak french perfectly. If the situation in France is anything like in the Netherlands, I wouldn't be surprised if someone of North-African or Arabian descent has more problems finding a job because of racial prejudices. Over here in the Netherlands, it's common knowlegde that people with a Moroccan last name will not be called up for a job interview when there's an equally qualified 'native', and have considerably more problems finding something like an internship or getting access to bars.

I'm not surprised these people are upset, even though I'm not in any way condoning this violence. When a large part or society isn't or at least doesn't feel accepted, have an disproportionately high unemployment rate and don't have the money to move out of their neighbourhood (even though the excessive French welfare system is apparently fit for a King), this is what you can get. And basically, hardliners, like Sarkozy seems to be, only add fuel to the fire.

 

[financeguy]

Fascist, interesting enough, why?Well that proves it, I think we all know who's really responsible for this dissolusion, they are just victims of American propaganda
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA...3Z_01_MAR227625_RTRUKOC_0_US-FRANCE-RIOTS.xml

Get a life.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Get a sense of humour

Former French matinee idol Pepe Le Pew was among the hundreds injured last night amid violent feline rioting in the impoverished Parisian suburb of Dans-le-Crappeur. Le Pew, 58, a former Warner Brothers studio actor turned Chirac government spokes-skunk, sustained severe scratches and concussions in the melee before nose-pin equipped EMT rescue squads could drag him to safety. He is expected to make a full recovery.

Last night’s rioting marked the eighth consecutive night of violence in the Paris suburbs, as thousands of immigrant feline youths continue to rampage to protest a lack of jobs and cuts in French government tuna programs. Dans-le-Crappeur, home to tens of thousands of unemployed first-hundred generation immigrant cats, has been particularly hard hit.

link

 

[financeguy]

Get a sense of humour

I have one, it's just neo-cons like you make me sick.

Weirdo.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Strange, I think the same thing about the objectively pro-fascist crowd.

 

[DrTeeth]

Could you two aplha males please go and play somewhere else? Thanks in advance!

 

[For Honor]

* really interesting topic.


(I need to get a serious update on what's going on in the world. I've been too dsitracted lately............)


................

 

[hiphop]

And what precisely would you advocate as an alternative to 'neo-liberal politics', as you call them?

this is not the topic of this thread. And what do you mean, as "I call them"? Neo-liberal is a description for a certain form of politics. Has been used in the last 15 years so where´s the problem?

But since you asked: social politics. A social balance that creates jobs instead of destroying them and outsourcing into countries with cheaper workforce. Higher taxes on speculation (intl finance). Social support that makes sure everyone survives. When you put the responsibility of retirement from public into private hands (like it happened in Europe), you have to make sure the percentage you pay as "retirement tax" to the state is reduced. Which it isn´t, and I would like it to remain in public hands anyway. Then.. control of businesses for their Euro Craze. Our politicians promised that nothing would get more expensive, in reality the prices for all the food (except of milk and bread, maybe) rose between 30% and 50% since 2002 - which has a huge impact here. This is pushing the people into poverty.

No studying fees. Education should free. Change of foreign policy re: rise percentage of GDP for development help.

As to the situation in France, the government should have started with giving the immigrants more rights and providing a decent environment from the very start.


etc, etc, etc.

 

[A_Wanderer]

As immigrants or decendents of immigrants do they have fewer rights than other French citizens?

 

[hiphop]

Steyn takes a more pessimistic line on all of this, marks for consistency though he has been in there advocating "Eurabian civil war" for quite some time link

Eurabian civil war - hahahahahaha

My God, people have such a crush on slogans.. Muslimofascists.. Eurabian civil war.. clowns playing with fire.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I used scare quotes, I don't subscribe to that view, and I think it is pointless fearmongering, riots can't last more than a few weeks on their own, passions subside.

 

[hiphop]

As immigrants or decendents of immigrants do they have fewer rights than other French citizens?

Sure, what did you think? Starts with voting. Descendants of immigrants usually have the same political rights if they´ve been staying in France for a couple of years (a decade or so), but will be harassed in every possible way. It´s the same here. It has to do with the history of immigrants since the 70s. There has been so much racism and xenophobia going on in Europe in the last years, it has filled the fuel. How long, do you think, are people goona bear this? its not enough to live in miserable conditions. They just get the most shit jobs, they are the ones selling newspaper on the street for low pay, they are the ones cleaning our houses and streets. At the same time, they are forced listen to anti-immigrant-slogans of right wingers like Le Pen. And a couple of them burns to death in bed because fucking Nazis burn their asylum homes. Plus, from the official political side there´s nothing, absolutely zilch, to level the situation.

When police kills immigrants (f.e. by taping their mouth and nose in the plane that brings them back to Africa), they are excused. Happens every couple of years.

Immigrants are second class people. When you´re poor, you´re always second class, but being an immigrant adds another touch.

 

[financeguy]

this is not the topic of this thread. And what do you mean, as "I call them"? Neo-liberal is a description for a certain form of politics. Has been used in the last 15 years so where´s the problem?

But since you asked: social politics. A social balance that creates jobs instead of destroying them and outsourcing into countries with cheaper workforce. Higher taxes on speculation (intl finance). Social support that makes sure everyone survives. When you put the responsibility of retirement from public into private hands (like it happened in Europe), you have to make sure the percentage you pay as "retirement tax" to the state is reduced. Which it isn´t, and I would like it to remain in public hands anyway. Then.. control of businesses for their Euro Craze. Our politicians promised that nothing would get more expensive, in reality the prices for all the food (except of milk and bread, maybe) rose between 30% and 50% since 2002 - which has a huge impact here. This is pushing the people into poverty.

No studying fees. Education should free. Change of foreign policy re: rise percentage of GDP for development help.

As to the situation in France, the government should have started with giving the immigrants more rights and providing a decent environment from the very start.

Well, as far as I can gather the phrase neo-liberal politics isn't used that much in the UK, Ireland or the US. Some of what you advocate - controls on business, speculator taxes - these measures in my view are impractical and rarely achieve what they set out to.

 

[hiphop]

Some of what you advocate - controls on business, speculator taxes - these measures in my view are impractical and rarely achieve what they set out to.

Since your location is Wall Street in Dublin, this doesn´t struck me as surprise.

 

[lady luck]

I am scared coz Chirac just announced he wants the "hard line" for dealing with this situation and asked all the ministries to establish order...

I am afraid I know what this means: brutality, perhaps children hit because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I agree that something must be done. But I don't see how a hard policy could solve problems.

Maybe I think in a too simple way, but what about dialogue?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Now to level the situation, that would entail what exactly, because it would seem from a completely outsider perspective that the manner in which social aid and welfare has been given to people has contributed and compounded certain problems. When you are talking about countries with high unemployment across the board as well as low GDP growth how can you stimulate the investment required for job creation? It does seem that these communities are a product of the best intentions of giving people what they need but in the absence of prospect. I agree that education is important and that where there are defficiencies they need to be adressed, public education is important but in the context of Islamic immigrants the hostility caused by the religious parephenalia ban could turn some away - would a voucher system operate effectively or would it be abused and create more division?

Incidently I think that that 'hard right' in Europe has much more ties to reactionary movements and show a strong tendency towards racism, religious bigotry and collectivism, for instance FN and BNP, I think that their authoritarian leanings do seem to verify what Hayek had to say.

 

[hiphop]

When you are talking about countries with high unemployment across the board as well as low GDP growth how can you stimulate the investment required for job creation?

In reality, it doesn´t need an additional stimulation. If products like food were cheaper (not such a big inflation rate - the official inflation rate is a fake because its made up only of a fraction of products), people would spend more money which would benefit economy. But people spend less because everything is so pricey and their money goes to stuff like medicine or education (which was entirely financed by state 10 years ago) instead of services, more luxury goods etc.

There are many investments in industry/ economy. If a company takes young (16yr old, directly out of school) apprentices, it is supported by state. If a company hires people who were unemployed for a long time, it is supported by state. If a company installs certain special environmental stadards, it is supported by state - like new energy forms wind, water energy etc.

Man, the stimulation you got there is overwhelming. And everyone pays taxes for those stimulations (even the immigrants, if they find work).

It is clear that managers want more, more and more stimulation. So they bitch about the bad climate and hope they can fill their pockets, always with the threat they´ll fire more people if those and those conditions are not fulfilled. In reality, the whole system is out of balance. Managers are fired if they don´t have X % profit growth rate, so its their duty to do everything they can, and if that means downsizing and a couple of thousands of people lose their jobs, thats ok. But still, this is not enough. So lets bitch about investment and hope that our politician friends will fill our pockets instead of the immigrants´ or unemployed or poor ones. Politicians need their influential friends to survive - a politician who stands (first and foremost) for social change will not rise in the ranks of the party, so there you go.



Excuse the derail.

While we speak, news are in that a 61 yr old man was killed in the riots,.

 

[MissMaCo]

Indeed, an old man was killed. He was attacked by ONE guy, and it wasn't during a riot. They were neighbours, and the young man attacked the old man after they quarrelled about a bin or something.

 

[MissMaCo]

It's funny how no one seems to be really listening to Marie - the one person in this thread who is actually French. 'Hearing about' stuff or 'someone I know saying' to me doesn't carry as much weight as hearing it straight from the horse's mouth as it were

thank you Lu

all I can say is that everybody's here is far from the truth and makes generalizations and that's very dangerous because this is exactly how the riots start.

Beware the media people, you're not watching a Bruce Willis movie !

 

[MaxFisher]

I agree that something must be done. But I don't see how a hard policy could solve problems.

Maybe I think in a too simple way, but what about dialogue?

You can't reason with a riot.

 

[Sherry Darling]

No, indeed. But you usually can reason with people before they riot. We ignore these people until this is all they have left (which doesn't, it may suprise you to hear me say, make it allright---I'm offering an explanation, not a justification).

It reminds me of this terrific scene in Dirty Pretty Things where the Nigerian immigrant doc is asked by this white Londoner why he's never seen him before. Londoner is suspicious since they're about to commit a crime together. Nigerian doc replies, "Because we are the people you don't ever see".

 

[MissMaCo]

I've just read an interview or 2 rioters, and I have to echo MaxFisher's post here. They say they fight against Sarkozy. But they burn their neighbours's cars.

 

[Dreadsox]

It is scary how coordinated the attacks appear to be. I am worried that this is not a minor problem that is happening.