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Old 11-03-2005, 06:51 PM   #16
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after reading all that

i need to take an aspirin

( cliff notes, please)
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Old 11-03-2005, 07:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Antilarry
Fuck you A_Wanderer! Everything is ideological with you, isn't it? Every last thing. Hey we have a social 'safety net' in Australia too, and we have LOTS of wild riots, dont we?

Don't we?
I think that the Redfern riot shows that these problems are not exclusive to France or Europe, hell we had the riots in Macquarie fields and they were white. the USA has had race riots and Britain just recently had a round of violence between Afro-Caribbeans and South Asians. In these cases it is not the specific event, the spark, it is the similiar social conditions and marginalisation that allows it to escalate.

High unemployment rates and having whole communities that are welfare dependent are key conditions for social unrest and violence. Similar conditions just as easily be created by complete free market annihilation of a safety net. I think that it is heavily flawed to dump such problems as being "not enough" government intervention, a little help to stop things going to hell can be a good thing - but having lots of young men who get the dole every fortnight (which is not a large ammount of money, welfare dependency is a trap and it certainly doesn't benefit the recipient much) and sit around every day is a recipe for disaster. Such as statement is not a call to remove all government support, the only time that I mentioned it was in regards to a specific point that declared that the current French government was going out to cut away the social safety net, something that I have not heard much about and nobody has provided information since.

We live in countries where civil society has been tempered by forms of welfare and social safety nets, perhaps that is the price of civilization. The only place where "pure" libertarianism could ever exist is in the absence of civilization on the frontiers. It is for this reason that I do not advocate complete and total removal of such things ~ but there is always room for people to edge in against government largess and waste.

I think that there has been a big fat load of projection in this thread, it's almost as brilliant as the "congratulations Bush voters" one in getting people to let loose.
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Old 11-03-2005, 08:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
A_Wanderer, do you apply your free market principles to the area of funding of third level institutions?

Science and technical courses can be particularly expensive to fund, so I'd imagine you would be opposed to having that burden falling on the hard pressed tax-payer. Jus' wonderin'.
They certainly can be, and the issue of funding education is in many ways an investment, the potential earning power of an educated individual is on average larger than unskilled labour - more money earnt they recieve more tax in the long run.

Now my university course is subsidised, I am accumulating a HECS debt that is payed back under a very generous scheme once I start earning a certain ammount (I am in no position to complain, if I were to openly rally against all government subsiding then that would make me shock - a hypocrite). The current government has made moves to raise to cost of courses minimising subsidies and there are already avenues for full fee paying students (if you pay full fee the threshhold to get into a course is lower, it also works for foreign students who come here to study).

From what I hear Australia is actually a very good place to be, in terms of balancing expenditure for education to results, and I am willing to conceed that that is a result of government subsidies
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The UK is home to 24 of the top 200 universities, second only to the US with 54 and ahead of Australia, in third place with 17.
link

Now per-capita that exeeds both the UK (.3971 top 200 universities per million people), USA (.1826 top200/million) with a figure of .8426 per million people.
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Old 11-03-2005, 09:08 PM   #19
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From the article posted by Dreadsox:-

"Whether France was wise to have permitted the mass immigration of people culturally very different from its own population to solve a temporary labor shortage and to assuage its own abstract liberal conscience is disputable: there are now an estimated 8 or 9 million people of North and West African origin in France, twice the number in 1975—and at least 5 million of them are Muslims. Demographic projections (though projections are not predictions) suggest that their descendants will number 35 million before this century is out, more than a third of the likely total population of France."

That's the crux of it I reckon.
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Old 11-04-2005, 11:51 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Thanks Irvine, I've been watching this. I wonder if it has any connection to the immigrants who were killed in the fires in Paris several weeks ago?

It looks like it has no connection at all.
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Old 11-04-2005, 11:54 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i wonder how much these events will stir the racist, nationalist Le Pen voters in France?
Let's pray that those who voted for le Pen won't do the same mistake again. Le Pen won't be able to prevent violence, on the contrary, he's more willing to trigger it.
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Old 11-04-2005, 12:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i wonder about the sense of cohesion amongst various immigrant groups in Paris -- is an attack on one group perhaps viewed as an attack on all immigrants? or are these two groups too different to feel any mutually shared sense of being under seige by the same elements?

"an attack of one group", what are you talking about exactly ? Are you refering to the fires in Paris which killed the immigrants ? Because as far as I know, one of this fire wasn't an attack against an immigrant group of people but it appears that it was a settlling of scores between 2 teens. Unfortunately this lead to an appalling disaster which killed a lot of immigrants. This fire was certainly not an attack against immigrants. I don't know much about the other ones, but I'm postive for that one.
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Old 11-04-2005, 12:09 PM   #23
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Why are you guys talking about a center right government ? This governement has nothing central, it is definietly right.
Unfortunately.
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Old 11-04-2005, 12:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Antilarry,
Saying "fuck you" to another poster is unacceptable. Please read the rules of this forum and refrain from making personal attacks in the future.

Thanks,
*Fizz.
Fizzy, saying "Antilarry" to another poster is unacceptable.


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Old 11-04-2005, 12:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissMaCo


"an attack of one group", what are you talking about exactly ? Are you refering to the fires in Paris which killed the immigrants ? Because as far as I know, one of this fire wasn't an attack against an immigrant group of people but it appears that it was a settlling of scores between 2 teens. Unfortunately this lead to an appalling disaster which killed a lot of immigrants. This fire was certainly not an attack against immigrants. I don't know much about the other ones, but I'm postive for that one.


a few months ago, there were hotel/apartment fires, a series of them, in which several African immigrants, notably children, were killed. i believe those who died were sub-Saharan Africans.

the current rioters appear to be North African and Muslim and in response to the accidental electrocution, as you pointed out.

i am wondering if two groups of immigrants -- sub-Saharan Africans and Muslim North Africans -- who are quite different culturally, feel a sense of kinship because of their similar immigrant status and the oft-reported greivance of France's failure to effectively intergrate both groups into society.

just curious, is all.
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Old 11-04-2005, 12:47 PM   #26
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As I said before I don't think, living in France and being French, that these two issues are connected.
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Old 11-04-2005, 01:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissMaCo
As I said before I don't think, living in France and being French, that these two issues are connected.


you don't think that both events contribute to the feeling of being under seige if you are an immigrant?
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Old 11-04-2005, 01:12 PM   #28
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I just said that I do believe that both events are not connected and this is precisely what was assumed in that thread earlier. Not connected in the sense that I don't think the riots are a kind of revenge or response to the fires.
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Old 11-05-2005, 09:48 AM   #29
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No Bush?
No Gay Marriage?
No Republicans?

Shit....if there were rioting like this in the USA....this forum would be hopping.

Instead...its a dead thread....and the French....get off free.
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Old 11-05-2005, 10:12 AM   #30
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PARIS (AFP) - Arson attacks flared overnight around Paris and police made more than 30 arrests as the worst violence the capital has seen in decades dragged on into its ninth straight night.

Two textile warehouses and a car showroom were set on fire to the northeast of the city, while some 180 vehicles were torched in the Paris region.

A fire-bomb was also thrown against the wall of a synagogue in the northern suburb of Pierrefitte-sur-Seine, police said.

At least 30 people were arrested, including some minors found to be carrying

http://au.news.yahoo.com/051104/19/wnv5.html
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