MERGED==> French Riots + a French Intifada?

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whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:


. the riots are caused by juveniles who are the 2nd or third generation there. often, they have been born in France. Still they live in the same bad cionditions they had when their parents arrived! .

Hiphop,

Did you miss my last post ( population control related). If the parents were not sure that they could give their kids good education, good behaviour, the decency to obey laws, why were they born in the 1st place. Before you jump into conclusion, I have exactly the same feeling for poor and unemployed youth ( especially those who riot or are agressive) here or for that matter anywhere.

They will tell you " Kids are given by God automatically ". The word "God" is grossly misused - all the time - eveywhere :tsk: I know how kids are born :sexywink:

AcrobatMan
 
AcrobatMan said:


dont you think thats better than rioting. :|

no but I think he has the right to stay in France, and his new home country shouldve offered more possibilities to him in the first place.

I also think that seperating families is an awful thing. m asking you how you want to enforce this. You want to take the 14 or 16 year old kids from the street, put em in the next truck drive them to the airport and send them straight into a country where they dont know anybody? You think this would have a positive effect?

We´re not talking about singular persons rioting, we´re talking about thousands.

Im excusing violence just like you, but until now nobody has replied to me:

what would the alternative be?

now, the whole world was listening to them. now, politicians also talk about social changes, acknowledge they have to do something. they see they have made a mistake.

how could that have been accomplished without the riots? in your opinion, Acrobat, they should have just stayed quiet to choke in the dirt?
 
AcrobatMan said:


Hiphop,

Did you miss my last post ( population control related). If the parents were not sure that they could give their kids good education, good behaviour, the decency to obey laws, why were they born in the 1st place. Before you jump into conclusion, I have exactly the same feeling for poor and unemployed youth ( especially those who riot or are agressive) here or for that matter anywhere.

I think maybe because they wanted a family of their own ??

I really fail to see how you want to enforce population control. I also asked you if you thought the Chinese system made any sense., you haven´t replied to me.

Basically, if Im not misunderstanding you, you are for population control by state.

Hey, when I am poor, I will think twice about getting kids. But anyway, if they get five, eight, ten kids, how can anyone forbid that? How can anyone critisize their decision?

The state is responsible too for giving them enough chances - not only the parents. See, Acrobat, we are talking about a rich nation. A first world nation. not a banana republic where you don´t expect the corrupt politicians to change anything. Hell, for what are the people paying taxes?

Instead of the argument "dont get so many kids" I say "you should have the choice to get as many kids as you want, and they all have the right on freedom, education and a job just as much as every other french juvenile has".

If you send them back to where their parents came from, you are executing the claims of right-wing racists all over Europe. They want to do that. Its them who use slogans like "send this scum back where they belong to" etc.


As to your population control policies, I am waiting for the reply on how you want to enforce those.
 
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Sorry hiphop,

I appreciate you sensitivities. I know what you do and how you feel for people on the streets. I really think that is noble & emotional.

But to expect everyone else to do what you do is not fair. People has the right not to donate, has the right not to be compassionate..not to be emotional, not to be spiritual..the right to be practical. the right to live without riots.

I can counter-argue with everything u said but i cant change u just as u cant change me.

You can call me racist - I will be least bothered because I am not a racist . I have respect for what people are and what people do...and I just dont care about color or race or creed or sex or age.

Acrobat
 
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AcrobatMan said:


not the best of adjectives...i am imagining green and yellow people :|

i seriously dont understand what colored mean.

someone help me



Don´t take her wrong, in Italy the adjective colored is used, it has abosolutely no racial discrimination, maybe in english it doesn´t sound good. But actually, I found on the dictionaire that there´s a "coloured people" definition.................


Who knows.....
 
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Acrobat, I'm going to press you on Stephan's question here, because you're dancing on it, but it goes to the heart of what you've said.

Yes or no: do you support gov'tl population control? If not, how to you plan to bring about this utopian world where only parents who are certain they can do a good job have kids? If yes, for that matter, how do your reconcile that with the desire you've expressed in other posts for other minimal government?
 
So imagine two French people, one is a second or third generation immigrant and one 'native' (due to lack of a better word). They both are born there and have the exact same legal status of French citizen, yet one guy would get 2 months in prison for riotting and the other gets deported out of the country. How exactly is this not racist?

And how do they plan on doing this? You can't just send people to a strange country just because their grandparents used to live there and, possibly with the exception of the Moroccan people, most of them only have a French passport they aren't a citizen of whatever country they are sent to. You think any country is going to welcome them with open arms and give them a legal status just because the French government wants them to?
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:
But anyway, if they get five, eight, ten kids, how can anyone forbid that? How can anyone critisize their decision?

Forbid - no.

Criticize - absolutely.

Are you seriously suggesting that we no-one can criticize people who have large families that they cannot support?

What happened to personal responsibility in all of this.

I think it's damnably irresponsible to have large families in an age such as this. Governments should intervene by making contraceptives available .
 
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Sherry Darling said:

Yes or no: do you support gov'tl population control?


No


Sherry Darling said:

If not, how to you plan to bring about this utopian world where only parents who are certain they can do a good job have kids?

I have not thought about it. Any parents who are producing kids without planning are doing wrong. Please dont call me racist for this.
Thanks :) I appreciate it
 
DrTeeth said:
So imagine two French people, one is a second or third generation immigrant and one 'native'

Ask both guys..

"Are you french".

I am sure you will get different answer and there is where the difference is.

Btw I never said - deport them forcibily...I said if they find the culture of their adopted too alien, if they have problem integrating in the other country, my personal advice to them is to go to their country of origin.
 
Is there actually any evidence which suggests that people in these areas have disproportionally large families and that this is responsible for their situation?
 
Ah so I just read they're only going to deport people with a foreign nationality, that at least answers my legal questions.
 
Acrobat--the phrase means basically being asked a direct question, and not giving a direct answer.

I am glad to hear you are not in support of gov't population control (I had to ask, as believe it or not, I know people who are!). I also appreciate your honesty in saying that you haven't thought this issue through fully. Not enough people can admit that. I'd encourage you to think through the way that race and class intersect. I'd also encourage thinking along the lines of what Financeguy mentioned--gov't support for contraception, and I'd add sex ed. Dr. Teeth had an excellent point, too, that your original suggestion of the rioters to "go home and riot there" totally misunderstood the facts at hand, and yes, you may refuse to hear this, but there were racist implications of that misunderstanding in your first assumption that the rioters were not French citizens but were immigrants. You don't necessarily have to be burning crosses or even personally "dislike" people of another race to implicitly support racist policies. I see in further posts though that this misunderstanding (about the nationality of the rioters) seems cleared up and that you seem to feel French citizen rioters of whatever race should face the same law. :up:
 
Sherry Darling said:
yes, you may refuse to hear this, but there were racist implications of that misunderstanding

If I will decide to call Britney Spear sexy and if you think thats racist

Its your problem, not mine

:shrug:

I think racism lies in your mind...not mine. The unnecessary and hurried conclusion that people can be racist when actually they are not is the worst form of racism :|
 
Only a thief thinks that people are out to steal him.
Only the murderers think people are out to kill him.
Only the discriminators think that everyone is out to discriminate
Only the liars think people are always lieing to them
Only the stupids think world is full of stupids


You know what I mean
 
AcrobatMan said:
Sorry hiphop,

I appreciate you sensitivities. I know what you do and how you feel for people on the streets. I really think that is noble & emotional.

But to expect everyone else to do what you do is not fair. People has the right not to donate, has the right not to be compassionate..not to be emotional, not to be spiritual..the right to be practical. the right to live without riots.

I can counter-argue with everything u said but i cant change u just as u cant change me.

You can call me racist - I will be least bothered because I am not a racist . I have respect for what people are and what people do...and I just dont care about color or race or creed or sex or age.

Acrobat

thats all cool and I´m not calling you racist because I know you aren´t. Sorry if I expressed myself in the wrong way, but hey, no one said you were a racist. I don´t want to change you.

It would be interesting to know how population can be controlled in your opinion, which I respect. What exactly are you advocating, that parents should be more responsible, that the state should step in and allow only one or two kids per family..? I want to know how you would practically deal with the situation - also referring to the immigrants in France, the topic at hand. Should they get less kids when they know their future will not be bright? Or should everyone get less kids?

Oh yeah and after reading the rest of the thread..

I got it now that maybe you didn´t think about the issue in the practical way... so I don´t want to press on that. Since you are against govt control of population I guess you were more like expressing the wish that parents would be more responsible. I think we can all agree on that. :up:
 
financeguy said:


Forbid - no.

Criticize - absolutely.

Are you seriously suggesting that we no-one can criticize people who have large families that they cannot support?

ok I think you can critisize. But you have to be careful with that because its everyones very own decision how many kids to get. And you have to be extremely careful with other traditions. I think basically the tradition of a big family is a good one. Why not, if one can support it?

If one can´t support it, that´s where the trouble starts. Now there are two ways to deal with this.

The reason they can´t support all the family is poverty.

It is a tradition of the Western World to imply that THEY have to change. THEY dont have enough technology, THEY dont have enough education, THEY dont have enough hospitals. So it is very, very easy to say "hey, blame yourself. get less kids and you´ll be less poor". First of all this is wrong. They will not lose their poverty if they get one or two kids.

In this world, there is enough to eat - every family in the world could have ten children. The world has enough place to plant food for about 15 bil. of people, and currently we´re at 6.4 bil.

Now the second way you can go is to look at the roots of the problem. And the roots are in poverty and, in the case of Africa, in slavery.

It is so arrogant and unfair to say, haha, get less kids, then less will die of hunger. I agree it is practical, especially regarding condoms etc. so there you go, lets not get into the argument what role the Roman Catholic church is playing there, we all agree on that.

To reduce poverty WE have to change our way of dealing with those countries and people, not THEY have to produce less kids.

So, criticism is ok, and sometimes needed. But I would like if we could all see the situation in a more professional way, which includes controlling what exactly we critisize and what this criticism implies.
 
Acrobat Man,

You were clearly offended by what I said. For whatever it's worth, I do not think you're racist. I do, as I said before, think that you originally made a racist assumption (that the rioters were immigrants). I felt and still feel its worth noting, since it seems those kinds of assumptions are a major part of what fueled this fire to begin with.

OK, headed out of town, all! :wave:
 
:huh:
Greek anarchists attack French schools, back rioters

ATHENS, Nov 11 (Reuters) - Groups of anarchists broke windows, threw paint and spray-painted slogans at French cultural institutes in Athens and northern Greece in support of rioters in France, Greek police said on Friday.

About 50 people, wearing hoods and helmets and carrying red and black flags, threw stones, spark plugs and bottles filled with paint at the central Athens French Institute on Friday morning, breaking windows and damaging parked vehicles. Police said there were no injuries and the group dispersed quickly after the attack.

Another group attacked the French institute in the northern city of Thessaloniki on Thursday evening, smashing windows while classrooms were filled with language students. They spray-painted "Rioters Are Right" on the front of the building.

"They just appeared out of nowhere, I think about 70 or 80 of them. They smashed everything and we just sat there terrified," one student told reporters.
 
imitations...

scaring thing!!
Especially when you repat awful events!
I wonder how this can come to a "normal" mind!!

Everyone should just condamn this facts!!!

:mad:
 
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