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Old 11-09-2005, 07:32 AM   #136
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For all the potential were the programs delivering results?
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:39 AM   #137
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
in the news they say that tonight there were less riots. in the last 2 weeks 1500 people have been arrested, many of them under 18, lots of them will have to face a quick trial and go straight to prison.

what a great way of dealing with the problem for the future. what do you think those juveniles will experience in jail and what will they tell their friends when they come back to the banlieu
Unfortunately, you're true.
I wonder what the government will do when this mess will be over...

And I can't help thinking it'll have the same policy he had before...

Moreover, I am really worried by the spreading of racism -- cover or not -- in Europe. I just can't imagine where this could lead us.



I live in a small town, just outside a big city. There are some immigrants in my area and a family of colored people moved in the flat next to mine. The comments and judgment of all the people living in my palace were just disgusting.
For instance, the couple has two twin kids of 20 months. Their pram is big and heavy, so he was left in a "common area" near the entrace. It was not in the middle of the place and could not hurt anyone. Well, they put a note on the wall, telling it was impossible to live the pram there...
I wonder if they realized it can't be put in the lift and that the mother is almost always alone... How could she put that thing upstairs?

I just can pray that everything will go well -- but I am scared of what could happen.
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Old 11-09-2005, 10:15 AM   #138
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Originally posted by lady luck


colored people
not the best of adjectives...i am imagining green and yellow people

i seriously dont understand what colored mean.

someone help me
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Old 11-09-2005, 10:17 AM   #139
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I just had a discussion with one of my friend here in my office and he thinks that if guy X goes from his country to another country - he should try to adapt to the other countries culture rather that the country adapting to this new immigrant culture.
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Old 11-09-2005, 10:41 AM   #140
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I've already posted the full text of what follows in the 'French Intifada' thread (maybe these 2 threads should be fused?) but since the assimilation issue keeps cropping up in this thread as well, I'll quote a few points from it here. This is from a New York Times opinion piece by Olivier Roy, a professor at Paris' School of Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences and the author of several books on political Islam.

Quote:
[T]he riots are geographically and socially very circumscribed: all are occurring in about 100 suburbs, or more precisely destitute neighborhoods known here as "cités," "quartiers" or "banlieues." There has long been a strong sense of territorial identity among the young people in these neighborhoods, who have tended to coalesce in loose gangs. The different gangs, often involved in petty delinquency, have typically been reluctant to stroll outside their territories and have vigilantly kept strangers away, be they rival gangs, police officers, firefighters or journalists.

France has a huge Muslim population living outside these neighborhoods - many of them, people who left them as soon as they could afford it - and they don't identify with the rioters at all. Even within the violent areas, one's local identity (sense of belonging to a particular neighborhood) prevails over larger ethnic and religious affiliation. Most of the rioters are from the second generation of immigrants, they have French citizenship, and they see themselves more as part of a modern Western urban subculture than of any Arab or African heritage.

Just look at the newspaper photographs: the young men wear the same hooded sweatshirts, listen to similar music and use slang in the same way as their counterparts in Los Angeles or Washington. (It is no accident that in French-dubbed versions of Hollywood films, African-American characters usually speak with the accent heard in the Paris banlieues).

Nobody should be surprised that efforts by the government to find "community leaders" have had little success. There are no leaders in these areas for a very simple reason: there is no community in the neighborhoods. Traditional parental control has disappeared and many Muslim families are headed by a single parent. Elders, imams and social workers have lost control. Paradoxically, the youths themselves are often the providers of local social rules, based on aggressive manhood, control of the streets, defense of a territory.

Americans (and critics of America in Europe) may see in these riots echoes of the black separatism that fueled the violence in Harlem and Watts in the 1960's. But the French youths are not fighting to be recognized as a minority group, either ethnic or religious; they want to be accepted as full citizens. They have believed in the French model (individual integration through citizenship) but feel cheated because of their social and economic exclusion. Hence they destroy what they see as the tools of failed social promotion: schools, social welfare offices, gymnasiums. Disappointment leads to nihilism. For many, fighting the police is some sort of a game, and a rite of passage.

Contrary to the calls of many liberals, increased emphasis on multiculturalism and respect for other cultures in France is not the answer: this angry young population is highly deculturalized and individualized. There is no reference to Palestine or Iraq in these riots. Although these suburbs have been a recruiting field for jihadists, the fundamentalists are conspicuously absent from the violence. Muslim extremists don't share the youth agenda (from drug dealing to nightclub partying), and the youngsters reject any kind of leadership.
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Old 11-09-2005, 10:55 AM   #141
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i hate threaded getting merged.....

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Old 11-09-2005, 10:55 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
I've already posted the full text of what follows in the 'French Intifada' thread (maybe these 2 threads should be fused?)...
Done. Continue with the discussion.
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Old 11-09-2005, 11:13 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan
I just had a discussion with one of my friend here in my office and he thinks that if guy X goes from his country to another country - he should try to adapt to the other countries culture rather that the country adapting to this new immigrant culture.
if an immigrant find his adopted country's culture too alien or doesnt find a job in his adopted country, I would advise him or her to return to his country and riot there.
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Old 11-09-2005, 12:02 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan


if an immigrant find his adopted country's culture too alien or doesnt find a job in his adopted country, I would advise him or her to return to his country and riot there.
Yeah especially if he´s been living in France all his life and if he´s about 16 yrs old. He should send himself back home, jump the next ship, leave his family in Paris behind and go back to Morocco

You miss the point completely. the riots are caused by juveniles who are the 2nd or third generation there. often, they have been born in France. Still they live in the same bad cionditions they had when their parents arrived! And still they´re treated like scum by employers, politicians and some toffee-nosed Parisiens.

What you´re advocating (and also the friend you were discussing with) is a sink or swim solution.
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Old 11-09-2005, 02:17 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Really? Wow, our reports differ. In our national news, they showed the wife of the guy, and she blamed Sarkozy and the police for her husband´s death.
yeah things can differ and you should all be careful with what you hear or read.

I'd like to applaud CNN for making a hell vision of France, and I'd like to congrat them : they showed a map of France, and all the towns were at wrong places I think Toulouse was in Germany and Paris was almost in the South, hmmm wonderful. Dumbasses

I saw some extracts of the US news on TV last night, I don't know what their aim is, but it's really disguting to change the truth like this. I'm sorry for those who wished such a thing, but Paris isn't on fire, Paris isn't at war. I wish the US journalists could choose carefully the images they show on TV. You are being manipulated if you think what you watch is the truth.

There are some riots, or maybe I should say, they were some riots, but it's far from being a war.
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Old 11-09-2005, 02:29 PM   #146
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I entirely disagree. For Sarkozy to resign would mean a surrender to thuggery. He is probably the most talented French politician of his generation and certainly preferable to that pompous idiot Chirac.


Sarkozy is very pompous also you know.

I saw him on TV a few days ago, before the riots started and he was meeting young people. He met a young Black teenager and asked him about his age. The boy answered (13 or 14 can't remeber exactly). And Sarko asked : "Where were you born ? And your parents?"

well, that's Sarkozy in all his glory.

He may be talented, but I think he doesn't know how to use his talent.
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Old 11-09-2005, 02:30 PM   #147
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so...what's going on in Belgium and in Germany ? I've just heard about some riots over there too Maybe I'm going to discuss on these countries now, and give advice to their politicians
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Old 11-09-2005, 02:38 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
Continue with the discussion.
Yes Ma'am!
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Old 11-09-2005, 03:28 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissMaCo
yeah things can differ and you should all be careful with what you hear or read.

I'd like to applaud CNN for making a hell vision of France, and I'd like to congrat them : they showed a map of France, and all the towns were at wrong places I think Toulouse was in Germany and Paris was almost in the South, hmmm wonderful. Dumbasses

I saw some extracts of the US news on TV last night, I don't know what their aim is, but it's really disguting to change the truth like this. I'm sorry for those who wished such a thing, but Paris isn't on fire, Paris isn't at war. I wish the US journalists could choose carefully the images they show on TV. You are being manipulated if you think what you watch is the truth.
Sorry, but I've been following both the French press and the American press on this story, and I'm just not seeing the dramatic discrepancies you're suggesting. For example, regarding M. Chenadec's death:
Quote:
Le Figaro headline, 8 Nov: Le premier mort des emeutes

from Le Monde, 8 Nov: Il est devenu, lundi 7 novembre, le premier mort de la revolte des banlieues.
Plus, I've seen too many headlines like Des cites en feu, etc., to accept the claim that that portrayal is unique to the American media.

Also, I checked the map of the riots at CNN's site and it looks perfectly geographically correct to me. It's in the sidebar of the following URL:
Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/07/europe.fears.ap/index.html
If this is not the map you saw, then perhaps you could find an image of that and post it. It's not as if CNN grab some random employee and have him draw up maps by hand as needed--it strains credulity, to put it mildly, to suggest they were portraying Toulouse as being in Germany.

I don't doubt that various aspects of this story are being sensationalized and distorted, by both the French and English-language media. The same was true of the situation in New Orleans a couple months ago, too. But that is the nature of the media. It's not a question of stoopid Yank journalists seeking to "manipulate" the naive masses.
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Old 11-09-2005, 03:43 PM   #150
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I know what I saw, I mean about the map. And I know where the French cities are located so either you believe me either you don't, that's not a big problem to me.

It's a pity I can't find it now but I'll look for it. And I'm afraid such a map is now not available on the Internet anymore.

You're right, the american media is not the only one to blame. Others made mistakes too.

And btw, for everybody's here I'm not an American hater. Far from it. But I wish everybody got well informed about the facts. And what I saw in CNN was totally wrong.

And I repeat, the media has sometimes the power to manipulate All the media, not only the US media. It's dangerous means of information.
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