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Old 01-11-2005, 11:36 AM   #16
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Originally posted by nbcrusader



I would say there are two parts to the draft plan:

1. Eliminating insurgent leaders

2. Creating a cost for those who support them.

OK, this is not a "plan". These are "goals". The plan is pretty clear in the article I referenced - we create Shiite and Kurdish "so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers."

Before this discussion goes any further, I feel it's important for one question, which I feel cuts right to both the moral and practical issues at stake, to be answered: How, exactly, can we expect Shiite and Kurdish forces to accomplish things that our military has not been able to?
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Old 01-11-2005, 11:57 AM   #17
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Has our military engaged in this type of plan?

Or does this open a new front in the military effort?
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Old 01-11-2005, 12:12 PM   #18
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I protested against the Latin American policies of the Reagan Administration. The problem was that so many of the casualties were civilians. Some of the most notorious killings were of aid workers and nuns. I met the first nuns I ever met in my life in those protests, because many Catholics, including many nuns, were involved in the protests. I'm a member of Pax Christi, although I haven't been active lately, admittedly, because I've been burned out on politics due to the election overkill. I'm sure if the government starts death squads it'll be a wake-up call, I'll probably be specifically asked to protest, and I will.
Another worry is that this controversial stuff will do more to split the American people rather than the unification which is so desperately needed right now. This could be bad for us, too, not just the Iraqis.
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Old 01-11-2005, 12:13 PM   #19
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Originally posted by nbcrusader



Indiscriminate killing of innocents does not appear to be what is contemplated.

I doubt this was contemplated the first time it was tried, either, but we've seen disastrous consequences for this kind of action before. I guess what I'd like to know is this:

1.) How will this help to convince people that the U.S. is bringing peace and stability to the region?

2.) How will we guarantee that (notoriously unreliable) regional militiae carry out their "duties" ( :shudder: ) as carefully and ethically as possible, to absolutely minimize risks of killing innocent people?

I don't have a lot of trust in this administration to begin with, and knowing that this kind of thing is being "contemplated" sure as hell doesn't make me feel any better.
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Old 01-11-2005, 12:14 PM   #20
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...Some of the most notorious killings were of aid workers and nuns. I met the first nuns I ever met in my life in those protests, because many Catholics, including many nuns, were involved in the protests. I'm a member of Pax Christi, although I haven't been active lately, admittedly, because I've been burned out on politics due to the election overkill. I'm sure if the government starts death squads it'll be a wake-up call, I'll probably be specifically asked to protest, and I will.
Pax Christi is a great organization. A lot of my nun friends are involved with it. They are some radical babes!
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Old 01-11-2005, 12:42 PM   #21
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Has our military engaged in this type of plan?

Or does this open a new front in the military effort?
Not sure what you mean. If you're asking if our military has tried to eliminate insurgency leaders, then I'd say the answer is a pretty big "yes".

At any rate, that's what I'm asking: how can we expect Shiite and Kurdish forces to end the insurgency, when our military cannot?
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Old 01-11-2005, 12:52 PM   #22
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Hmmm. The Pentagon is debating a strategy against the insurgents.

Should we discuss the effectiveness of this strategy? Should we discuss appropriate guidelines for implementing the strategy? Should we discuss ways to discourage public support of terrorism?

I think the first two questions cut right to my feelings on this strategy. NO! IMO there are no reasons to even considering this stategy especially in light of what history has shown.

There should be firm moral boundaries for even war and especially "terrorist" situations. Assassinations, death squads, extreme bombings, and nuclear alternatives should not even be on the table.

This admin. is big on maintaining morality, but only of a sexual nature. Human rights aren't even on the radar.
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Old 01-11-2005, 03:53 PM   #23
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Assassination is a legitimate means of targeting terrorists, it is the polar opposite of collective punishment as it only kills the guilty party. This is not a war against geneva convention obeying uniformed members of a millitary, this is a war against enemy combatants who hide behind civilians when fighting and murder civilians by the hundred and as such the actions that can be used when fighting are different.

"Extreme bombings" make little sense when fighting asymetrical warfare and there is absolutely no "nuclear alternative" on the table - both of these propositions seem to be ill founded fear mongering on behalf of the anti-democratic left. Fighting and winning a war requires considerations of all possibilities; I do not think that there is anything wrong with these considerations.
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Old 01-11-2005, 04:15 PM   #24
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Assassination is a legitimate means of targeting terrorists, it is the polar opposite of collective punishment as it only kills the guilty party. This is not a war against geneva convention obeying uniformed members of a millitary, this is a war against enemy combatants who hide behind civilians when fighting and murder civilians by the hundred and as such the actions that can be used when fighting are different.

So what is different about this and the Viet Cong, or the Nazi's, or the Japenese or any other foe hiding among civilians. The uniform excuse is just that. This is a guerilla war from their perpective. "Enemy combatants" is a f**king name invented to excuse American breaking treaties it's signed and it's own laws.
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Old 01-11-2005, 04:38 PM   #25
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The difference is that both the Wehrmacht and Japanese Imperial Army were uniformed, for the most part they fought in accordance with the rules of war, they were fighting on the battlefield and did not put on civilian clothing in order to ambush allied forces.

The terrorists within Iraq in their tactics and deeds violate articles 4 of the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War,

Some of the criteria that must be met to be afforded status as lawful combatant are as follows:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.


Those groups operating within Iraq do not comply with any of the above and hence are disqualified from lawful combatant status. Spin it as guerilla warfare where the ends justify the means as much as you want the fact remains that they do not obey the laws of war, they work to maximise rather than minimise civilian casualties, they simply torture and execute any captured US or Iraqi soldiers. Compared to these groups the Wehrmacht amd Japanese Imperial Army were paragons of virtue when fighting wars - they were uniformed, they had a clear chain of command and accountability, they took POW's and didn't just execute them, they fought on the battelfield in a manner consistent with the rules of warfare.

It is not done to excuse America breaking treatise, it is done to highlight the enemy that is being fought and to allow for a more effective counter-insurgency campaign to be run.
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Old 01-11-2005, 04:42 PM   #26
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Pax Christi is a great organization. A lot of my nun friends are involved with it. They are some radical babes!
I'll never forget seeing a nun (no doubt) burning up in the hot June sun at a protest at Fort Benning, wearing her full traditional habit. There were other nuns at the protest who didn't wear habits. They had "Benedictines For Peace" on their signs. That, in fact, is when I started to think of becoming a Catholic, and five years later, I did.
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Old 01-11-2005, 04:56 PM   #27
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I'm sorry but thats BS. The enemy should not define us.

You didn't apply my question to the Viet Cong or many other guerilla armies operating in the world today. By your standards the Sudanese are correct in their actions for the civilians possible harboring of insurgents. Or the French in Algiers, or for that matter our wiping out of Native American warriors. Or does that only apply to the ones we are fighting.

Don't get me wrong I don't want my soldiers killed, but stooping to death squads is wrong under any circumstances.
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Old 01-11-2005, 05:03 PM   #28
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Read it again. Going after the terrorists is not the plan here. The plan is to go after the population at large, who are supporting the insurgents. This plan is designed to kill innocent people, not save them.
Any member of the Sunni population that aids terrorists in their operations which kill and wound people are not innocent and are in fact terrorist themselves.
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Old 01-11-2005, 05:06 PM   #29
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No they are not, there are fundamental statutes of law that must be obeyed and the rights of unlawful combatants have been outlined, the Sudanese are engaged in Genocide - deliberate extermination of an entire section of their population by proxy, the French in Algeria tortured to death suspected terrorists and led to many war crimes.

I am saying that the US must comply with its treaty obligations and that there is slightly more leeway in dealing with this enemy - for instance assassination, something that wouldnt be considered when fighting a conventional war becomes a more attractive and in many ways saner option than Fallujah type operations. I am not saying that they should form death squads and this logical path does not justify war crimes.
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Old 01-11-2005, 05:10 PM   #30
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OK, this is not a "plan". These are "goals". The plan is pretty clear in the article I referenced - we create Shiite and Kurdish "so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers."

Before this discussion goes any further, I feel it's important for one question, which I feel cuts right to both the moral and practical issues at stake, to be answered: How, exactly, can we expect Shiite and Kurdish forces to accomplish things that our military has not been able to?
All Shiite and Kurdish people speak the language, know the culture, and look much the same as most Sunni's, at least when compared to Americans or Europeans. The goal here is to infultrate the population in order to find the terrorist who are using the civilian population to hide themselves and their operations. A group that is native to the area and dressed as civilians has a much better chance in this arena than foreigner who does not know the language, looks completely different, and has a uniform on.
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