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Old 08-22-2005, 10:39 PM   #196
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
I heard a comment from someone today that science, in their words "has nothing to do with the creation of life" It was all God and nothing else had anything to do with it .

Yeah. There's someone I trust to enter that real world working experience and such that pax pointed out....

Angela
I usually laugh when I hear someone say such things because I cannot fathom how any person with even a gram of brain matter can think that, and it has to be a joke. Of course it often isn't and I get glared at. Which wouldn't be that bad except all to often around here no one else laughs...which might explain why this is one of the poorest counties in the state.
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Old 08-23-2005, 06:36 AM   #197
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Originally posted by indra
I usually laugh when I hear someone say such things because I cannot fathom how any person with even a gram of brain matter can think that, and it has to be a joke.
Sadly, based on her other things she's said about that subject, I don't believe she was joking.

That's...kinda worrying.

Angela
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Old 08-23-2005, 07:41 AM   #198
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Originally posted by pax
It's not a stretch for me, as a Christian, to believe that evolution is one tool in God's vast box for unfolding the universe as it is meant to be. Why is that so hard for other people?
Me either. To me evolution is so amazing that I believe only God could have done it.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:38 AM   #199
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because everyone likes to feel persecuted.
Pot.... Kettle?
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:40 AM   #200
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Originally posted by pax
It's not a stretch for me, as a Christian, to believe that evolution is one tool in God's vast box for unfolding the universe as it is meant to be. Why is that so hard for other people?
Evolution is not taught as one tool in God's vast box. As you can easily tell from some of the responses, it should be taught as a way to completely eliminate the idea of God in this unfolding universe.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:46 AM   #201
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Evolution is not taught as one tool in God's vast box. As you can easily tell from some of the responses, it should be taught as a way to completely eliminate the idea of God in this unfolding universe.
I think the point is that people can easily integrate evolution into their religious belief by regarding it as "one tool in God's vast box." This isn't a view which should be presented by schools, but is one which parents or religious leaders may wish to teach.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:51 AM   #202
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Evolution is not taught as one tool in God's vast box. As you can easily tell from some of the responses, it should be taught as a way to completely eliminate the idea of God in this unfolding universe.
Childbirth isn't "taught" as a tool of God either, but those that believe in God see and use it that way.

I have never seen evolution taught in a way to completely eliminate the idea of God. I've never had a professor even bring up the word 'God' when teaching evolution. It may for those that take Genesis as a literal account for how the world was created. And instead of evolution vs. creation maybe a discussion as to how literal books like Genesis should be taken, should occur within Christianity or within the church.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:15 AM   #203
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Thanks, Fizzing...all I meant is that I think some anti-evolution folks see evolution as this insidious way to transform schoolchildren into godless heathens, where it's really just a well-founded theory that any self-respecting scientist takes reasonably seriously. In no way does the teaching of evolution somehow eliminate the possibility of belief in God or a higher power.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:17 AM   #204
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Pot.... Kettle?


precisely. i've written about the Left and it's victim mentality

the difference is, i'm having my civil rights violated.

those who claim persecution in the evolution "debate" are basically calling the failure of the state to endorse their religious beliefs as tantamount to persecution.

am i more persecuted than your average right wing politicized Christian?

absolutely.

are both groups guilty of claiming victim status as a political tool?

absolutely.

and you've played the part of victim in this forum every much as i have.

so, again, another case of the pot calling the kettle.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:19 AM   #205
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Evolution is not taught as one tool in God's vast box. As you can easily tell from some of the responses, it should be taught as a way to completely eliminate the idea of God in this unfolding universe.


there, there ... are those nasty scientists saying mean things about God again?

or do they just not mention God because it is, by definition, neither verifiable nor falsifiable and therefore not a part of science education?
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:32 AM   #206
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I think the point is that people can easily integrate evolution into their religious belief by regarding it as "one tool in God's vast box." This isn't a view which should be presented by schools, but is one which parents or religious leaders may wish to teach.
If health class taught that abortion kills a baby, would you not be upset because the teacher has framed the delicate issue of abortion in a way that you think poisons the discussion you wish to have with your child? Or even to teach abstinence, and not teach of the alternate forms of birth control, however riskier they may be?

Well then put yourself in Christian's shoes. Your child is in Biology, and the teacher presents his theories on how the world was created and describes the big bang and explains how that flows outward and is furthered by evolution. No discussion of Intelligent Design, creationism etc. And yet, there is no more proof of the Big Bang than there is of Creationism or ID. It is a theory.

To postulate that the Universe may have it's origin in something more than accidental incidences does not establish religion in Science and is no more irrefutable than the theory of the Big Bang. Meanwhile, parents who do care what their kids are learning, want to make sure that Science is not (irresponsibly) leaving out a theory that should be discussed.

This also means that it isn't an either/or discussion of evolution, and I believe that the proponents of ID acknowledge that, nor is it a specific call to Christianity or any other religion. It's more an admission that Science doesn't have the explanation for the vast intricacies that exist in the universe.

And meanwhile, Mom & Dad don't feel like they have to have their beliefs shoved out of the classroom because Science has already figured out all the answers when in fact Science should still be asking questions.

And I don't buy the argument that believing in Creationism blunts growth in Math & Science, ideologues of any stripe can do that. Our kids fail in these subjects because the parents and the child spend less and less time studying together, something that the Asian families seem to care about more. The lag isn't intellect, it's drive.

It's funny to see all the relativists take an absolute position in Science. I guess relativism is relative too.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:39 AM   #207
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I don't really think it's that hard to teach evolution consistently and fairly. Here's how a typical lesson might go:

TEACHER: Evolution is the theory that species change over time in response to various natural influences. It was first developed by Charles Darwin in the 19th century.

KID: Teacher, where did all the plants and animals come from in the first place?

TEACHER: Many scientists think that an event called the Big Bang caused the formation of stars and planets and eventually led to the development of life on Earth.

KID: But where did the Big Bang come from?

TEACHER: Science doesn't have an answer to that. Your parents or your church might be able to tell you what people think about how the universe got started in the first place.

KID: At Sunday School, my teacher told me that God made everything!

KID #2: My parents told me that everything just came out of nowhere.

TEACHER: Well, science doesn't have an answer either way. We might never know where the universe came from to begin with, but we do know some things about how certain kinds of plants and animals developed on Earth. Your parents might be able to tell you more about what people think about where the universe came from.

***

Simple. Straightforward. Respectful of religious tradition. And totally scientifically accurate.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:43 AM   #208
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For Paxes example

But, in my class we had to remind our Biology teacher that the Big Bang wasn't the only theory going. If it's not in the curriculum to consider it as a competing theory, those who don't won't.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:43 AM   #209
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Well then put yourself in Christian's shoes. Your child is in Biology, and the teacher presents his theories on how the world was created and describes the big bang and explains how that flows outward and is furthered by evolution. No discussion of Intelligent Design, creationism etc. And yet, there is no more proof of the Big Bang than there is of Creationism or ID. It is a theory.

To postulate that the Universe may have it's origin in something more than accidental incidences does not establish religion in Science and is no more irrefutable than the theory of the Big Bang. Meanwhile, parents who do care what their kids are learning, want to make sure that Science is not (irresponsibly) leaving out a theory that should be discussed.

This also means that it isn't an either/or discussion of evolution, and I believe that the proponents of ID acknowledge that, nor is it a specific call to Christianity or any other religion. It's more an admission that Science doesn't have the explanation for the vast intricacies that exist in the universe.

you're incorrect.

ID is not an admission that science doesn't know everything -- any scientist will tell you that they know barely anything. what ID tries to do is cast doubt on the scientific method and lend scientific legitimicy to the supernatural -- which, by defintion, cannot be verified or falsified, thus failing the requisite criteria for inclusion in a science classroom.

anyone is free to discuss ID in a philosophy class, or a theory class, or a religion class. just not a science class because ID is emphatically NOT science, thus it merits no place in a science classroom. and science should not in any way have to tip-toe around fact in order not to offend any religion, Christian or otherwise.

you also don't understand what a theory is in science. gravity is a theory. plate tectonics is a theory. evolution is a theory. difference is, evolution might be the best, most coherent, most researched theory science has to offer; it links all of biology together. if you must insist on claiming that evolution is "just a theory" and therefore must be viewed with more skepticism than, say, the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, then consistency should demand that you call ID "not yet a theory."

you also underestimate the forces behind ID. they are avowdly Christian, and funded by heavily monied people who offer universities money so that their professors can work for them to "prove" ID.

article for you: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/21/na.../21evolve.html
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:56 AM   #210
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Originally posted by starsforu2
If health class taught that abortion kills a baby, would you not be upset because the teacher has framed the delicate issue of abortion in a way that you think poisons the discussion you wish to have with your child? Or even to teach abstinence, and not teach of the alternate forms of birth control, however riskier they may be?
I would be unhappy with a teacher claiming that "abortion kills a baby" because that is an expression of the teacher's own moral view and not based on the available evidence about abortion. The phrase "kills a baby" is an emotive one designed to evoke strong feelings in people whether they are pro-choice or anti-abortion.

Quote:
Well then put yourself in Christian's shoes. Your child is in Biology, and the teacher presents his theories on how the world was created and describes the big bang and explains how that flows outward and is furthered by evolution. No discussion of Intelligent Design, creationism etc. And yet, there is no more proof of the Big Bang than there is of Creationism or ID. It is a theory.
Evolution is supported by scientific evidence -- it may not be fact but it is a valid scentific theory based on the available evidence and it is a theory which has widespread support among scientists. Creationism or intelligent design have abolutely no evidential basis, they're not scientific theories but religious theories. I don't believe teachers should be expected to discuss religious theories in a science classroom.

Quote:
Meanwhile, parents who do care what their kids are learning, want to make sure that Science is not (irresponsibly) leaving out a theory that should be discussed.
Can you clarify why you believe intelligent design or creationism to be a theory which it would be irresponsible not to discuss in a science classroom. I've always been of the opinion that only valid scientific theories should be taught as science and intelligent design and creationism do not meet the criteria for a valid scientific theory.

Quote:
It's more an admission that Science doesn't have the explanation for the vast intricacies that exist in the universe.
We can acknowledge that science can't (yet? or maybe not, lol.) explain everything without claiming that religion can explain that which scientists are as yet unable to account for.

Quote:
And meanwhile, Mom & Dad don't feel like they have to have their beliefs shoved out of the classroom because Science has already figured out all the answers when in fact Science should still be asking questions.
If Mom and Dad want their religious beliefs taught in the science classroom then perhaps they ought to consider sending their children to a specifically religious school. Public schools should not endorse religion and to teach intelligent design or creationism is endorsing a religious belief.

I've tried asking this question in this thread before, but do you personally believe in intelligent design/creationism? Again, I'm asking because it seems it's very easy to advocate a religious belief being taught in schools when it's one with which you agree, but I suspect many people's opinion would be different if this were a thread about teaching a theory based on, for example, Islam or Judaism rather than on a religion which they claim adherence to.
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