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Old 08-23-2005, 12:45 PM   #61
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


People who are not able to speak out against the extremists in their own organizations lose all their impact on me. I am not interested in their opinions, you know. Either you side with them or you clearly critisize them and take distance. Like Bush has said so nicely, "either you´re with us, or you´re against us". A wishy washy "This guy´s a crazy idiot" doesn´t help anyone. Consider that, however sad it is, thousands of people are following persons like Robertson, Falwell or Helms. Tell me again if that´s a potential danger or not.

You see, I have very valid reasons for my opinion.

Now let´s both get off the high horse, maybe you can see my point of view even if you don´t share it.

With that, we´ve neither started to speak about Robertson´s sins, as ignoring the 6th commandment in what he advocates. I´m still the opinion every Christian should stand for his views, and if one believes in the ten commandments, he shall oppose such extremist statements very clearly. Call that my own personal game of guilt, if you want to, no problem. In that case, I stand by what the Bible says.
I couldn't agree more. I grew in the Tidewater area and Pat Robertson is not seen as a nut in anyway. His TV shows have huge ratings and he is seen as the ultimate Christian leader by many. His influence is huge with some of the Christian Right, whether that is true of those here in FYM.

I think other American Christian Right Leaders should repudiate his statements publically, on Fox TV preferably. What's the difference in his statement and one from Osama calling for Bush's death? They may both be nuts, but the outrage should be the same.
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:46 PM   #62
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Originally posted by starsforu2
Robertson did not call for Christians or just anybody to assassinate him, he called for the US Government to do so. Is this much different than many other people calling for the assassination of Osama Bin Laden?
Yes.

1. If Robertson called out for Christians to assassinate, he would make himself totally ridiculous. Tell me one middle-class American conservative Christian that would, God beware, take a step out of his country to go to Venezuala, let alone, go there to assassinate someone. Robertson knows VERY WELL who has the resources and military power to do this, and it´s not the average American family father.

2. It is an enormous difference because Chavez is an elected President with a majority, Osama is neither a President nor elected, but the head of an international terror organization. Also, Chavez didn´t hijack a few planes to crash into the WTC or Pentagon.

What a question..
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:00 PM   #63
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Back to one of the original arguments, for the lawyers amongst us here, I would like to add a little mind game just to make them think about who they´re calling nuts.. assume that Robertson had been caught trying to assassinate someone - thats, after all, what he advocates -
which side would the lawyers amongst us take if Robertson was accused and in front of the court?

In judicial terms, calling someone a crazy nut (being mentally ill) will lead to a non-guilty. That´s what you call defending someone.

Clearly accusing someone of a crime is the role of the prosecutor. And this has nothing to do with "that guy´s just crazy, society can afford to ignore him".
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:04 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


What a question..
Easy HipHop... Easy... I asked it for rhetorical purposes to get people thinking about the differences and nuances of public statements not as an endorsement of what he has said.

So be nice. I've been respectful of you without giving you a
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:15 PM   #65
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Here in the states the majority of Churches are still very conservative and do see him as a spokesperson.
I'd be hardpressed to agree with this. One of the biggest issues I have with the Christian right is that they have too much power for their actual numbers. America has such a diverse group of religious people, especially Christians, the liberal/mainline churches in America are amoung the most liberal in the world (and yes, I know they are losing members.) I think that if you surveyed self-described conservative Christians, the ones who would actually say they follow Robertson would be in a minority.

Anyway, after reading this thread I want to jump out a window, for various reasons.
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:19 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by starsforu2


Easy HipHop... Easy... I asked it for rhetorical purposes to get people thinking about the differences and nuances of public statements not as an endorsement of what he has said.

So be nice. I've been respectful of you without giving you a
Sorry, my english isn´t that good in understanding the nuances of expression.. I figured you meant it dead serious endorsment, didn´t know you had a nice little cynical brain like me.
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:22 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonfix


I'd be hardpressed to agree with this. One of the biggest issues I have with the Christian right is that they have too much power for their actual numbers. America has such a diverse group of religious people, especially Christians, the liberal/mainline churches in America are amoung the most liberal in the world (and yes, I know they are losing members.) I think that if you surveyed self-described conservative Christians, the ones who would actually say they follow Robertson would be in a minority.

Anyway, after reading this thread I want to jump out a window, for various reasons.
Yeah looking back at that statement I should have worded it differently. Maybe not a spokesperson but a member, an influential member. What I mean by that is they may not agree with him in everything but they'll stand by his side as soon as someone from the left slighted him. It's something I don't understand but I see all the time in hear and all over this country.
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:24 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonfix

I think that if you surveyed self-described conservative Christians, the ones who would actually say they follow Robertson would be in a minority.
A minority can be a very small one, but if only 0,01% of cons. Chr. would follow him, the media wouldn´t give a shit because no one would be interested (if only out of curiosity for a "nut") and they would lose viewers. A minority can also be a big minority, like 12%, or 20%, 30% or 49% of cons. Christians. That makes millions of people and therefore that kind of extremism is potentially dangerous.
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:29 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Sorry, my english isn´t that good in understanding the nuances of expression.. I figured you meant it dead serious endorsment, didn´t know you had a nice little cynical brain like me.
Cool! When this originally came up I thought, everyone is going to jump on Robertson, nobody is going to defend him, so this will be a circle-jerk thread where everyone says the same thing. So why not ask some questions about why this is so offensive? Does it matter that it came from Robertson? What if it came from Michael Moore, or somebody from the left? Should we even be in the business of assassinating people? Nobody wants to weigh in on that.

Bono isn't his keeper, most likely he will just avoid being seen with him if a one campaign thing came up. Bono isn't responsible for everyone that he rubs elbows with. Besides, he disagrees mightily with Blair and Bush, but works with them because that's what he believes he should do for a greater purpose.
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:35 PM   #70
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In my neck of the woods, Pat Robertson is a hero, or least a celebrity worthy of note. I live in Alabama and put up with crud in the newspapers, etc, etc every day. Sure some people don't like him......I don't. The far right runs the state, it always has, because the fg voters let them. I don't think the average person would pack the guns and buy a ticket to Caracas but it only takes one nut to commit murder. If the Ku Klux Klan can have web sites it can provide plenty of nuts. If I were the head of Chavez' security I'd beef up my operations.
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:55 PM   #71
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Respond with a if you are not a consumer of oil.
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:59 PM   #72
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To respond to various posts....

BonovoxSuperstar....thanks for clarifying what you said. I pretty much agree.

HipHop...you're right that The Christian Right is a minority of size. The number is hard to figure out because there are different criteria in which to judge what beliefs make one a member of the Christian right. Unfortunatley the media hasn't done religious issues many favors, they have in the past lumped things together....first all Christians, now they are a bit smarter but still like to lump things into a neat package...like conservative Christians are all united as are liberal ones.

starsforu2, thanks for trying to get this topic on a different track. I am not personally a fan of Mr. Chavez, he's made some comments that are pretty wacky. But he's a democratically elected official who poses no real threat to anyone. I'm not above saying that assasination of a despot is sometimes necessary, as it would have been with Hitler, etc. but Robertson's comments are just really inappropriate.

As for Bono---it's not his worry what Robertson says. (And on a TOTALLY different tangent....it was said that Bono disagrees with Bush and Blair but he still works with them...Bono disagrees with Blair on the war, but other than that, Bono had nothing but glowing things to say about Blair's policies before the war came about. I assume he still really likes the guy, even if they have their differences on this issue).
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:04 PM   #73
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I don't see how Bono using Pat Robertson in the ONE Campaign implies an endorsement of this horrible statement or of anything else he might say. Maybe for better or for worse, Bono is just more forgiving and more open minded than most people when he has a certain goal in mind. Or maybe just in general, I don't know him well enough to determine that obviously.
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:39 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I don't see how Bono using Pat Robertson in the ONE Campaign implies an endorsement of this horrible statement or of anything else he might say. Maybe for better or for worse, Bono is just more forgiving and more open minded than most people when he has a certain goal in mind. Or maybe just in general, I don't know him well enough to determine that obviously.
Why would you hold Bono accountable for Pat Robertson's stupid ass comments?

I do not get it....

There are plenty of people who unite over a good cause, and part at others.
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Old 08-23-2005, 03:01 PM   #75
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I don't hold him responsible for them at all, but apparently some people do
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