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Old 08-23-2005, 11:10 AM   #46
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Well, to get back to the subject....I don't think that you can fault Bono for what Robertson (or anyone else ) says or does. Bono has gotten smarter in terms of his politics. I'll give you an example. Remember the video montage of old man Bush rapping "We Will Rock Baghdad" over the loop of the Queen song? That was making a very political statement - one that very polemical, and although true it probably didn't make a lick of difference in the whole scheme of things. Fast forward to 2005. Bono is received like a head of state by many world leaders, and has the ability to broker deals for Africa involving tens of billions of dollars. He's older and wiser - he doesn't come out and make outrageous statements about certain leaders (*cough*sputter*dubya*cough) anymore, but his staments on issues leave no doubt as to where he actually stands. This has allowed him unprecedented access to powerful people. I've heard Bono say that some of the politicians he deals with actaully make him feel ill, and he doesn't name them, but he's doing it to achieve his goals. He's playing their game, and winning, but without sacrigficing his intergity in the process. So in the end, Bono should not be ashamed of collaborating with Robertson on the One campaign.
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:14 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
The arrogance of you statement is appalling. If you want to criticize, fine, make your statement - I can handle them. Hiding behind broad statements leave nothing to respond to.

As for the specific issue, your expectation that everyone (from Bono to conservative Christians) has a duty to condemn Robertson establishes a principle you really don't want to live by.

Yes, Robertson is a nut that I can afford to ignore. He is the Howard Stern of politics, interjecting wild statements to get people riled up. He's done this for years. And the vast majority of what are called "conservative Christians" ignore him as well.
Fine, so keep on thinking you can ignore him. In reality you can´t, because you and the complete American conservative Christians lose the respect of potential future conservative Christians.

You could have impressed me with some of the views in your agenda, but if you are to stubborn to take distance from the extremists in your own rows, no matter how nutcase or powerful they are in reality, you must understand that I can´t take you serious at all.

Calling someone a nut is actively and consciously playing down the sins this person is committing in his statements and the negaitve effects they might have on the rest of the world.

nbcrusader, I have not heard a SINGLE word of serious critique from you regarding Robertson, Helms, book-burners or other extremists who - sadly, but that´s life - call themselves conservative Christians. For the record, i believe you dont agree with them - but all I ever heard from you is "They´re nuts, those are nuts too, ah and he´s a nut too, nuts, nuts, nuts, ignore them all".

Since you fail to take distance from extremists, but rather choose to belittle the dangers they pose to an opened, democratic society, I can only reiterate what I said in the paragraphs you obviously must have been missing:

Yes, I am judging those extremists; and I take my right to do so, judge me in return if you will. You are pissing me off; you book-burners, killers, racists and warmongers are a shame to every serious Christian out there.
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:18 AM   #48
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


If you take a look at Bono´s (and ours) big heroes like MLK, I´d say, the outspoken. I appreciate the efforts of Bono, however, he´s walking a very thin line, and accusations of being neutralized don´t exist out of oblivion. I am far from thinking he is neutralized - the recent Live8 concerts being an example for that - but he shouldn´t exaggerate in "walking the walk and playing the game". Many eyes are watching him, and it is our duty to control the directions he takes, with the image of angel he has and likes to spread.
Two complete different causes. MLK had to be outspoken, he was fighting from the outside trying to get in.

Bono got his foot in the door, it's a different game now. What would Bono acomplish by alienating Bush, Blair, etc? This cause requires the backing of governments...

My point is that those like Vedder, Green Day etc who are very outspoken against Bush aren't going to be getting his backing anytime soon.
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:24 AM   #49
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@ BonoVoxSuperstar: Your general question, not limited to musicians, was whether the outspoken succeed or those who play the game. Leave mediocre rockbands like Green Day out of that. Like I have said, there´s no reason to critisize Bush or Blair openly, everyone can live with that. Everyone can see the reason for it, those are men in power, right. But if you can´t afford to kick a "nut" like Robertson, where are we heading to? Courtesy for (if you believe the conservative Christians here) unimportant people who advocate killing democratically elected Presidents? Thats a stretch a little far, I would say.
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:27 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


This cause requires the backing of governments...

well since we live in a "free" and "democratic" society, shouldn't the cause require the backing of the people?

i'm...so...confused....
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:29 AM   #51
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Hiphop,

Perhaps you should read more of my posts.

I doubt you are unwilling to live to the standard you are establishing here. Let's see if I get this straight - for every nut job, extremist view or disagreeable viewpoint made, there should be a clear statement repudiating such viewpoint. Failure to do so will subject you to judgment as, what, agreeing with? in step with? said nut job, extremist, etc.

Get off the high horse. Roberton is one on many nut jobs in this world. I disagree with his statements and his style. But, I'm not going to play your game of guilt by "insufficient outrage".
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:31 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
@ BonoVoxSuperstar: Your general question, not limited to musicians, was whether the outspoken succeed or those who play the game. Leave mediocre rockbands like Green Day out of that. Like I have said, there´s no reason to critisize Bush or Blair openly, everyone can live with that. Everyone can see the reason for it, those are men in power, right.
Right but that question was in direct response to a statement Teta040 said...
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:35 AM   #53
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Originally posted by Se7en


well since we live in a "free" and "democratic" society, shouldn't the cause require the backing of the people?

i'm...so...confused....
That's why the campaign is asking the people to write their government, that's the whole premise of action behind this campaign.
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:38 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That's why the campaign is asking the people to write their government, that's the whole premise of action behind this campaign.
i was just being difficult.
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:50 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teta040
Pat Robertson is NOT a nutcase. The man is dead serious, and he is a mainstream, well-respected figure. He's not like Jerry Falwell...and was in a different class altogether from Jim Bakker and Tammy Fae. He's not some upstart. He founded a big university in Virginai that has churned out mainstream evengelical pastors for over 20 yrs. I remember watching him when I was a kid. That's the problem..I was a kid. Thank God, I outgrew him even before he turned corrupt.

That is what is so frightening and dangerous about him. I never thought he would radicalize like this. You would have never predicted it in, say, 1989. All these other upstarts..James Dobson, etc etc, are all trying to be like him, but they'll need another 20 yrs to approach his class. They have the politcal influcne but not the financial powerbase. He has a well-established business and Educational empire, a true "base of operations" every bit as powerful as a corporation. Again, this is what makes him so frightening.

Robertson's still a nutjob. Just because he has lot of other nutjobs (including the one in the White House) agreeing with him doesn't make him less of one.
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:07 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I doubt you are unwilling to live to the standard you are establishing here. Let's see if I get this straight - for every nut job, extremist view or disagreeable viewpoint made, there should be a clear statement repudiating such viewpoint. Failure to do so will subject you to judgment as, what, agreeing with? in step with? said nut job, extremist, etc.
First a clarification please: You mean you doubt I am willing..? or unwilling? Excuse me, if you meant unwilling, I don´t understand the sentence. Or do you mean you don´t doubt I am willing to live up to the standard?

However, what I missed to say is that I dont think for every nutjob or extremist there should be a clear statement. I mean this for the ones who influence enough people to make it into the media, there should be one. If your neighbor tells you at a barbecue "this idiot Clinton really deserves to be roasted", I don´t expect any official statement from a conservative Christian organisation. But if a man who calls himself a conservative Christian (or part of the American Christian Right) makes such a statement, yes, then the conservative Christians have to issue a statement that takes distance from him! If not, everyone else will autimatically assume they are the same opinion.

But let´s not beat around the bush anymore: the real problem here isn´t that the American Christian Right opposes those extremist views, the real problem is that they apparently accept them as a part of their so multifaceted organisation. The real problem is that some people share those extremists´ views. Don´t believe me? Please, don´t make me dig up conservative Christian messageboards to see what´s going on there.

Allow me to compare: if Muslim organizations didn´t take distance from the extremists in their own rows, but kept saying "oh they´re all nuts, just ignore them" - would you take those same Muslim organizations serious? No, you will only take them serious when they say "We condemn the evil acts of those terrorists, that´s not what we believe in, that´s not what the name Muslim stands for".

Allow me to compare another time to point out the dangers of qualifying someone like an innocent nut to be ignored. Maybe you can understand where I am coming from when I tell you I´m from the country where Hitler was born. You know what many people said when WWII was over? They said Hitler was a crazy nut who had better been left in a psychatric hospital. They totally ignored the fact that this man was responsible for so many millions of deaths, but chose to trivialize his personality. They totally ignored that without support from the German steel industry (capitalists, by the way), Hitler wouldn´t have risen to power in 1933 - and that support happened when WWII had not broken out yet; at a time when this man still travelled around the country spreading his evil extremist views to build his fanbase for later on. (Most of)The Germans LOVED Hitler! Don´t be so naive to assume that the Americans are above all that. I wonder what would happen if one of your extremists was in power.

People who are not able to speak out against the extremists in their own organizations lose all their impact on me. I am not interested in their opinions, you know. Either you side with them or you clearly critisize them and take distance. Like Bush has said so nicely, "either you´re with us, or you´re against us". A wishy washy "This guy´s a crazy idiot" doesn´t help anyone. Consider that, however sad it is, thousands of people are following persons like Robertson, Falwell or Helms. Tell me again if that´s a potential danger or not.

You see, I have very valid reasons for my opinion.

Now let´s both get off the high horse, maybe you can see my point of view even if you don´t share it.

With that, we´ve neither started to speak about Robertson´s sins, as ignoring the 6th commandment in what he advocates. I´m still the opinion every Christian should stand for his views, and if one believes in the ten commandments, he shall oppose such extremist statements very clearly. Call that my own personal game of guilt, if you want to, no problem. In that case, I stand by what the Bible says.
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:11 PM   #57
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How come every time someone calls for the assassination or ouster of a world leader, said leader is conveniently sitting on MASSIVE oil reserves?
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:21 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Allow me to compare: if Muslim organizations didn´t take distance from the extremists in their own rows, but kept saying "oh they´re all nuts, just ignore them" - would you take those same Muslim organizations serious? No, you will only take them serious when they say "We condemn the evil acts of those terrorists, that´s not what we believe in, that´s not what the name Muslim stands for".
This is a valid point. It seems we (meaning residents of many western countries) have very high standards in our expectation that Muslims will condemn extremism in the strongest terms. It seems only fair to expect the Christian community to condemn its extremists in similarly strong terms. As you said though, I suspect that the views which many Christians in FYM claim aren't representative of conservative Christianity are in fact far more widespread than many would like to acknowledge. You have to ask, if people like Falwell and Robertson have so little support as many claim, how do they maintain their consistently high level of visibility and influence?

Also: *Puts mod hat on* Could we all please make some additional effort to keep this discussion civil and respectful. There have been a few posts which seem to engage in unfounded generalisations about particular groups and some posts which aren't terribly respectful to other posters. This is an interesting subject and I'm sure it's one which people on all sides of the debate have strong opinions about, but please try to express those opinions in a respectful and polite way. Thank-you.

*Fizz.
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:25 PM   #59
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Originally posted by DaveC
How come every time someone calls for the assassination or ouster of a world leader, said leader is conveniently sitting on MASSIVE oil reserves?
Hmmm...that is a puzzle.

Although in the interests of fairness, I feel compelled to point out that a number of people advocated the assassination of Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian territories aren't exactly endowed with plentiful natural resources of any kind.
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:37 PM   #60
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Question: Is it considered a Terrorist action to call for the assassination of somebody by the authorities?

We get upset with Imams and such because they incite violence amongst their own followers. But Robertson didn't ask his followers to do anything. Robertson did not call for Christians or just anybody to assassinate him, he called for the US Government to do so. Is this much different than many other people calling for the assassination of Osama Bin Laden? Does it matter that Bin Laden is a known bad guy?
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