MERGED --> Bono Should Be Ashamed + More ranting from Robertson

[Scarletwine]

People who are not able to speak out against the extremists in their own organizations lose all their impact on me. I am not interested in their opinions, you know. Either you side with them or you clearly critisize them and take distance. Like Bush has said so nicely, "either you´re with us, or you´re against us". A wishy washy "This guy´s a crazy idiot" doesn´t help anyone. Consider that, however sad it is, thousands of people are following persons like Robertson, Falwell or Helms. Tell me again if that´s a potential danger or not.

You see, I have very valid reasons for my opinion.

Now let´s both get off the high horse, maybe you can see my point of view even if you don´t share it.

With that, we´ve neither started to speak about Robertson´s sins, as ignoring the 6th commandment in what he advocates. I´m still the opinion every Christian should stand for his views, and if one believes in the ten commandments, he shall oppose such extremist statements very clearly. Call that my own personal game of guilt, if you want to, no problem. In that case, I stand by what the Bible says.

I couldn't agree more. I grew in the Tidewater area and Pat Robertson is not seen as a nut in anyway. His TV shows have huge ratings and he is seen as the ultimate Christian leader by many. His influence is huge with some of the Christian Right, whether that is true of those here in FYM.

I think other American Christian Right Leaders should repudiate his statements publically, on Fox TV preferably. What's the difference in his statement and one from Osama calling for Bush's death? They may both be nuts, but the outrage should be the same.

 

[hiphop]

Robertson did not call for Christians or just anybody to assassinate him, he called for the US Government to do so. Is this much different than many other people calling for the assassination of Osama Bin Laden?

Yes.

1. If Robertson called out for Christians to assassinate, he would make himself totally ridiculous. Tell me one middle-class American conservative Christian that would, God beware, take a step out of his country to go to Venezuala, let alone, go there to assassinate someone. Robertson knows VERY WELL who has the resources and military power to do this, and it´s not the average American family father.

2. It is an enormous difference because Chavez is an elected President with a majority, Osama is neither a President nor elected, but the head of an international terror organization. Also, Chavez didn´t hijack a few planes to crash into the WTC or Pentagon.

What a question..

 

[hiphop]

Back to one of the original arguments, for the lawyers amongst us here, I would like to add a little mind game just to make them think about who they´re calling nuts.. assume that Robertson had been caught trying to assassinate someone - thats, after all, what he advocates -
which side would the lawyers amongst us take if Robertson was accused and in front of the court?

In judicial terms, calling someone a crazy nut (being mentally ill) will lead to a non-guilty. That´s what you call defending someone.

Clearly accusing someone of a crime is the role of the prosecutor. And this has nothing to do with "that guy´s just crazy, society can afford to ignore him".

 

[starsforu2]

What a question..

Easy HipHop... Easy... I asked it for rhetorical purposes to get people thinking about the differences and nuances of public statements not as an endorsement of what he has said.

So be nice. I've been respectful of you without giving you a

 

[Lemonfix]

Here in the states the majority of Churches are still very conservative and do see him as a spokesperson.

I'd be hardpressed to agree with this. One of the biggest issues I have with the Christian right is that they have too much power for their actual numbers. America has such a diverse group of religious people, especially Christians, the liberal/mainline churches in America are amoung the most liberal in the world (and yes, I know they are losing members.) I think that if you surveyed self-described conservative Christians, the ones who would actually say they follow Robertson would be in a minority.

Anyway, after reading this thread I want to jump out a window, for various reasons.

 

[hiphop]

Easy HipHop... Easy... I asked it for rhetorical purposes to get people thinking about the differences and nuances of public statements not as an endorsement of what he has said.

So be nice. I've been respectful of you without giving you a

Sorry, my english isn´t that good in understanding the nuances of expression.. I figured you meant it dead serious endorsment, didn´t know you had a nice little cynical brain like me.

 

[BVS]

I'd be hardpressed to agree with this. One of the biggest issues I have with the Christian right is that they have too much power for their actual numbers. America has such a diverse group of religious people, especially Christians, the liberal/mainline churches in America are amoung the most liberal in the world (and yes, I know they are losing members.) I think that if you surveyed self-described conservative Christians, the ones who would actually say they follow Robertson would be in a minority.

Anyway, after reading this thread I want to jump out a window, for various reasons.

Yeah looking back at that statement I should have worded it differently. Maybe not a spokesperson but a member, an influential member. What I mean by that is they may not agree with him in everything but they'll stand by his side as soon as someone from the left slighted him. It's something I don't understand but I see all the time in hear and all over this country.

 

[hiphop]

I think that if you surveyed self-described conservative Christians, the ones who would actually say they follow Robertson would be in a minority.

A minority can be a very small one, but if only 0,01% of cons. Chr. would follow him, the media wouldn´t give a shit because no one would be interested (if only out of curiosity for a "nut") and they would lose viewers. A minority can also be a big minority, like 12%, or 20%, 30% or 49% of cons. Christians. That makes millions of people and therefore that kind of extremism is potentially dangerous.

 

[starsforu2]

Sorry, my english isn´t that good in understanding the nuances of expression.. I figured you meant it dead serious endorsment, didn´t know you had a nice little cynical brain like me.

Cool! When this originally came up I thought, everyone is going to jump on Robertson, nobody is going to defend him, so this will be a circle-jerk thread where everyone says the same thing. So why not ask some questions about why this is so offensive? Does it matter that it came from Robertson? What if it came from Michael Moore, or somebody from the left? Should we even be in the business of assassinating people? Nobody wants to weigh in on that.

Bono isn't his keeper, most likely he will just avoid being seen with him if a one campaign thing came up. Bono isn't responsible for everyone that he rubs elbows with. Besides, he disagrees mightily with Blair and Bush, but works with them because that's what he believes he should do for a greater purpose.

 

[verte76]

In my neck of the woods, Pat Robertson is a hero, or least a celebrity worthy of note. I live in Alabama and put up with crud in the newspapers, etc, etc every day. Sure some people don't like him......I don't. The far right runs the state, it always has, because the fg voters let them. I don't think the average person would pack the guns and buy a ticket to Caracas but it only takes one nut to commit murder. If the Ku Klux Klan can have web sites it can provide plenty of nuts. If I were the head of Chavez' security I'd beef up my operations.

 

[2Hearts]

Respond with a if you are not a consumer of oil.

 

[Lemonfix]

To respond to various posts....

BonovoxSuperstar....thanks for clarifying what you said. I pretty much agree.

HipHop...you're right that The Christian Right is a minority of size. The number is hard to figure out because there are different criteria in which to judge what beliefs make one a member of the Christian right. Unfortunatley the media hasn't done religious issues many favors, they have in the past lumped things together....first all Christians, now they are a bit smarter but still like to lump things into a neat package...like conservative Christians are all united as are liberal ones.

starsforu2, thanks for trying to get this topic on a different track. I am not personally a fan of Mr. Chavez, he's made some comments that are pretty wacky. But he's a democratically elected official who poses no real threat to anyone. I'm not above saying that assasination of a despot is sometimes necessary, as it would have been with Hitler, etc. but Robertson's comments are just really inappropriate.

As for Bono---it's not his worry what Robertson says. (And on a TOTALLY different tangent....it was said that Bono disagrees with Bush and Blair but he still works with them...Bono disagrees with Blair on the war, but other than that, Bono had nothing but glowing things to say about Blair's policies before the war came about. I assume he still really likes the guy, even if they have their differences on this issue).

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't see how Bono using Pat Robertson in the ONE Campaign implies an endorsement of this horrible statement or of anything else he might say. Maybe for better or for worse, Bono is just more forgiving and more open minded than most people when he has a certain goal in mind. Or maybe just in general, I don't know him well enough to determine that obviously.

 

[Dreadsox]

I don't see how Bono using Pat Robertson in the ONE Campaign implies an endorsement of this horrible statement or of anything else he might say. Maybe for better or for worse, Bono is just more forgiving and more open minded than most people when he has a certain goal in mind. Or maybe just in general, I don't know him well enough to determine that obviously.

Why would you hold Bono accountable for Pat Robertson's stupid ass comments?

I do not get it....

There are plenty of people who unite over a good cause, and part at others.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't hold him responsible for them at all, but apparently some people do

 

[hiphop]

I don't hold him responsible for them at all, but apparently some people do

Which wouldn´t even be an issue if "the conservative Christian Right" was intelligent enough to not defend its extremists, but take a certain distance towards the extremists´ statements. Then Bono could easily and openly agree with "the conservative Christian Right" in the media, concerning this matter (presumed he gives a flying fuck about it).

Since the extremists are in minority, this would make it easier for everyone involved. But the conservative Christians who don´t support Robertson still decide to remain in silence mediawise.

 

[martha]

1. Bono is not as stupid as some people here like to think.

2. While Robertson is indeed fucking crazy, I doubt he's so off from the Christian majority as some people want to believe; how is he getting enough money to stay on the air if no one supports him?

3. Isn't it a Christian belief that it's wrong to kill? (Not that we can tell by our president.) That's what makes what Robertson said unBiblical.

4. The reason is not right to just go in and assassinate this guy? He's a democratically elected leader of another country. Used to be that mattered to a democracy like the US. I'm not sure it doeas anymore, but it matters to this particular participant in the democratic process.

5. If people start unsupporting the ONE campaign because of what Robertson said, and his links to it, then they were half-hearted supporters looking for a cheesy reason to leave anyway.

 

[anitram]

Since the extremists are in minority, this would make it easier for everyone involved. But the conservative Christians who don´t support Robertson still decide to remain in silence mediawise.

I wonder if everyone's become completely obsessed with not offending and not alienating a person or group of people who may be desirable as an ally somewhere down the road.

Isn't that why Bono hangs around some of these wackos? Because they are influential with a group of people whom Bono may need at some point?

Sometimes I wonder how much nonsense is worth putting up with for a cause.

 

[martha]

concerning this matter (presumed he gives a flying fuck about it).

This is the pivotal point here. And I don't think he does give a flying fuck about it.

 

[hiphop]

This is the pivotal point here. And I don't think he does give a flying fuck about it.

agreed but he could write a song about it. probably with some intro in Spanish or Portugese so the people in Venezuela dig it even more

 

[coemgen]

I found this interesting. It's from Time.com.


Why Pat Robertson's Statements Help Hugo Chavez
The Venezuelan President has long thrived on criticism from the U.S.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has a new best friend this morning: television evangelist Pat Robertson. With his astonishing call for the left-wing leader's assassination last night—"I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it...We have the ability to take him out"—Robertson will have surely made Chavez an even more popular anti-yanqui icon in Venezuela, Latin America and around the world. Like his mentor Fidel Castro, Chavez thrives on threats from the U.S., real or perceived. He has long insisted that his foes are plotting to kill him, and this summer had armed civilians training with the Venezuelan military to prepare for what he says is an imminent U.S. invasion. A public effort to whack him, offered from the right-wing Christian establishment so closely aligned with President Bush, is just what Chavez needs to keep his approval ratings soaring as high as the price of the Venezuelan oil he controls, the largest crude reserves in the hemisphere.

Chavez is no doubt a source of concern for Washington, if only because Venezuela is America's fourth-largest foreign oil supplier. Chavez's erratic and often bellicose anti-U.S. rhetoric—he publicly called Bush an "ass____" in Spanish last year—as well as his desire to sell less oil to the U.S. and more to ideological allies like China, are hardly comforting as gas nears $3 per gallon. But neither is Chavez's embrace of nations like Iran, and nor is the fact that he's leading a politically potent (and, to the Bush Administration, potentially destabilizing) wave of angry neo-leftism in Latin America, from Argentina to Mexico.

But Chavez holds cards that make remarks like Robertson's all the more incendiary on the Latin American street, where language like "U.S. imperialism" suddenly has currency again. One is the past: Latin Americans have too many vivid and bitter memories of U.S. intervention in their countries—operations that sometimes included brazen assassinations —which is why the Bush Administration got burned by accusations it backed a failed coup against Chavez in 2002 (the White House denies the charge). Another is democratic legitimacy: Chavez, for all his authoritarian tendencies, is a democratically elected head of state who last year won a national recall referendum approved by international observers.

Perhaps an even more important factor is populist backing: leftism is on the rise again in Latin America for a reason, namely the burgeoning feeling around the region that a decade of U.S.-backed capitalist reforms has simply widened an already epic gap between rich and poor—and that the Bush Administration is indifferent to it. As Chavez uses his multi-billion-dollar oil revenues to fund the kind of social projects that Venezuela's legions of impoverished never saw from his kleptocratic predecessors—and to subsidize cheaper oil for his cash-strapped Latin neighbors—more people are willing to defend him, as most Latin leaders did last spring when Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice toured South America.

As a result, any cold war-style talk about "taking Chavez out" with "covert operatives," as Robertson suggested, just confers more Che Guevara cachet on the former army lieutenant colonel (who himself led a failed coup in 1992). And since Chavez has threatened to cut off oil exports to the U.S. at the first sign of gringo aggression, it makes America's important Venezuelan oil supply look all the more volatile.

 

[Lemonfix]

I wonder if everyone's become completely obsessed with not offending and not alienating a person or group of people who may be desirable as an ally somewhere down the road.

See the Republican Party. They started pandering to the Christian right because without them they were the minority party. Now party traditionalists have to work hard not to alienate that section of the electorate by offering them things and consulting with them on topics like the SCOTUS process. But their alliance with the Christian right has given the Republicans control of government, and while the suburban moderates and libertarians may feel uncomfortable with it, they know this alliance is the only way they can get their party in power so they accept it. Such is the way of getting things done in politics and life.

Isn't that why Bono hangs around some of these wackos? Because they are influential with a group of people whom Bono may need at some point?

Sometimes I wonder how much nonsense is worth putting up with for a cause.

With a situation like Africa I'd say he'd very well put up with anything.

 

[hiphop]

the more incendiary on the Latin American street, where language like "U.S. imperialism" suddenly has currency again. One is the past: Latin Americans have too many vivid and bitter memories of U.S. intervention in their countries—operations that sometimes included brazen assassinations —which is why the Bush Administration got burned

Exactly. I got some pics of my last trip to Nicaragua a year ago to back this up. Thats graffitis at a bus station.

Hehe.

 

[Harry Vest]

For more strange yet quite probably true stories and theories on Pat Robertson and his ilk check out www.antipasministries.com
It's high time Bono just quits associating with these creeps. If I meet him this fall during the tour I will attempt to get this across to him in the kindest of ways. Maybe it's even time to pray (for those who do pray) for Bono - pray for protection (spritual and otherwise) from these creepy "Christians".

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

This is a valid point. It seems we (meaning residents of many western countries) have very high standards in our expectation that Muslims will condemn extremism in the strongest terms. It seems only fair to expect the Christian community to condemn its extremists in similarly strong terms.

Agree with this.

At the same time, though, I'm not about to start stereotyping all people from a religion based on the comments and actions of a few idiots, and I think to expect most Christians, or most Muslims, or most people from any religion, to publicly state that these idiots' views aren't theirs just seems a bit odd. Maybe I'm just being too optimistic, as usual, but I don't really need the majority of Christians or Muslims telling me they don't support the actions of the few idiots...I would kinda assume that was the case already, personally. I think most religious people are good, kind-hearted souls who would never dream of saying or doing some of the things the few idiots who happen to share the same faith as them would say or do.

But that's just me. I see what Hiphop is saying here, and some valid points are being raised, and this bit from Fizz is really something worth considering, too-fair play, after all, but...I dunno .

And I'll also agree with BVS Shaliz and martha and them. I also just assume that Bono's not into supporting assassinations of anybody, I wouldn't need a public condemnation from him to Pat to prove that to me. And while I fully support and applaud some people being very vocal about their beliefs on an issue, at the same time, I also applaud and support those who choose to go about that more quietly. It's a personal decision there. And it's a hard one, too-it's nice to vocalize your beliefs, people know for sure where you stand that way and there's no confusion. But at the same time, if you vocalize them a certain way, you risk being accused of being pushy. Or you actually do become pushy. You're gonna piss people off on both sides either way. So each person should just decide for themselves how they want to change things-publicly or privately. Bono can decide who he wishes to work with and how he wishes to get his views on things out there to the people.

Angela

 

[indra]

And now we all (at least all of us in the US) better hope like crazy that Chavez doesn't get assassinated by anyone.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I don't want people condemning terror if they actually support it, I just want to know where people really stand.

 

[A_Wanderer]

this just in over the wires

Robertson Issues Fatwa Against Venezuela's Chavez
by Scott Ott

(2005-08-23) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez beefed up security at his residence and offices today after reports that Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson has issued a fatwa calling for the assassination of the South American communist dictator.

Venezuelan police have begun detaining and searching "clean cut, Bible-toting men in unfashionable clothing" as likely followers of the wealthy, charismatic religious personality. However, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) immediately lodged a protest with the Venezuelan government over the "profiling" of '700 Club' devotees by security forces.

Mr. Robertson is revered among his fanatical TV viewers, who each year contribute millions of dollars to advance his so-called "ministry," as much as he's feared by the teams of U.S. journalists who track his movements and record his remarks.

The Pentagon immediately denied that Mr. Robertson's name had previously appeared on any Defense Department "watch list," but a spokesman discouraged news networks from airing video of the Robertson fatwa announcement, fearing his remarks might contain coded instructions for Christian cell groups around the world.

http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/002288.html

 

[Scarletwine]

Some Other Lovely Quotes From the Right

Murder on their minds: Robertson not alone among conservative media figures
Pat Robertson's recent call for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has sparked significant media coverage. But Robertson, host of Christian Broadcasting Network's The 700 Club and founder of the Christian Coalition of America, is not the first to make a comment of this sort. Indeed, Media Matters for America has documented several other instances of conservative media figures advocating or musing about the execution of people with whom they disagree.

O'Reilly said LA Times' Kinsley wouldn't "get it" until terrorists "cut off his head"

Fox News host Bill O'Reilly said that the Los Angeles Times editorial board wouldn't understand his objection to legal representation for detainees at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, until terrorists kill editorial page editor Michael Kinsley.

From the May 17 broadcast of Westwood One's The Radio Factor with Bill O'Reilly:

O'REILLY: No, no. I want you to read it. Go to LATimes.com. I want everybody in the country to read this editorial, 'cause it just -- I mean, you'll be sitting there pounding the table like I did. How can they -- how can they think this way? How can anyone think this way? You know, "Shutting down Guantánamo and giving suspected terrorists legal protections would help restore our reputation abroad." No, it wouldn't. I mean that's like saying, well, if we're nicer to the people who want to KILL US, then the other people who want to KILL US will like us more. Does that make any sense to you? Do you think Osama [bin Laden] is gonna be more favorably disposed to the U.S. if we give the Guantánamo people lawyers?

E.D. HILL (co-host): No, of course not.

O'REILLY: I mean, but this is what they're saying. It is just -- you just sit there, you go, "They'll never get it until they grab Michael Kinsley out of his little house and they cut his head off." And maybe when the blade sinks in, he'll go, "Perhaps O'Reilly was right."

Glenn Beck confessed that he was "thinking about killing Michael Moore"

Clear Channel radio host Glenn Beck said he was "thinking about killing [filmmaker] Michael Moore" and pondered whether "I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it."

From the May 17 broadcast of The Glenn Beck Program:

BECK: Hang on, let me just tell you what I'm thinking. I'm thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I'm wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out -- is this wrong? I stopped wearing my What Would Jesus -- band -- Do, and I've lost all sense of right and wrong now. I used to be able to say, "Yeah, I'd kill Michael Moore," and then I'd see the little band: What Would Jesus Do? And then I'd realize, "Oh, you wouldn't kill Michael Moore. Or at least you wouldn't choke him to death." And you know, well, I'm not sure.

Coulter said the debate over Clinton should have been "whether to impeach or assassinate"

Syndicated columnist Ann Coulter argued that the national debate during the Monica Lewinsky controversy should not have focused on whether President Bill Clinton "did it," but rather "whether to impeach or assassinate" him.

The quote appeared in Coulter's book High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against Bill Clinton (Regnery, 1998):

In this recurring nightmare of a presidency, we have a national debate about whether he "did it," even though all sentient people know he did. Otherwise there would be debates only about whether to impeach or assassinate.

— J.K.

Posted to the web on Tuesday August 23, 2005 at 3:56 PM EST

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Interesting twist....

Chavez Offers Cheap Gas to Poor in U.S.
By David Pace
Reuters

HAVANA, Cuba - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, popular with the poor at home, offered on Tuesday to help needy Americans with cheap supplies of gasoline.

We want to sell gasoline and heating fuel directly to poor communities in the United States," the populist leader told reporters at the end of a visit to Communist-run Cuba.

Chavez did not say how Venezuela would go about providing gasoline to poor communities. Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA owns Citgo, which has 14,000 gas stations in the United States.

The offer may sound attractive to Americans feeling pinched by soaring prices at the pump but not to the U.S. government, which sees Chavez as a left-wing troublemaker in Latin America.

Gasoline is cheaper than mineral water in oil-producing Venezuela, where consumers can fill their tanks for less than $2. Average gas prices have risen to $2.61 a gallon in the United States, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

Chavez said Venezuela could supply gasoline to Americans at half the price they now pay if intermediaries who "speculated ... and exploited consumers" were cut out.

Venezuela supplies Cuba with generously financed oil and plans to help Caribbean nations foot their oil bills.

Chavez, in Cuba to attend the graduation of Cuban-trained doctors from 28 countries, was seen off at the airport by Cuban President Fidel Castro. Washington has accused the two leaders of being a destabilizing influence in South America.

Chavez and Castro offered to give poor Americans free health care and train doctors free of charge.

*edited to add that there are a lot of Cuban doctors who do really great work here in Mali. Guess not everything that comes out of Cuba is automatically eeeevil.