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Old 08-23-2005, 09:00 AM   #31
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Originally posted by martha


He doesn't give a fuck about either one.
how do you know?

anyway, pat robertson is a psycho - obviously.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:01 AM   #32
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merge baby merge!
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:07 AM   #33
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merge baby merge!
It is done.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:19 AM   #34
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I don't think Bono has anything to be ashamed of here. He isn't the one making these remarks, and I would sincerely hope people's first thought on hearing this wouldn't be "Oh my God! Didn't Bono associate with this guy at one time? Guess I won't support anymore of Bono's causes!"

I agree with those who have said Pat Robertson is a nutcase. And you can't really hold Bono responsible for what someone else says, just because he's been in the same room/worked with them before. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:48 AM   #35
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just so everyone knows ... Pat Robertson was on the list of people the White House "consulted" on the Supreme Court nominee decision.
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:00 AM   #36
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Originally posted by Irvine511
just so everyone knows ... Pat Robertson was on the list of people the White House "consulted" on the Supreme Court nominee decision.
Let's hope he doesn't enjoy a similarly privileged position with regard to foreign policy.
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:06 AM   #37
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I don't think the left would be that easily turned off. The left, at least here in America know Pat Robertson, if they were going to be turned off, they already would have.

This campaign needs the right, Bono realizes that.

Here's the issue. And I'm gonna try and word this as carefully as possible but I'm still probably going to offend some. Conservative Christians a group that has helped the current president keep his chair, a group that has helped him get there, is very influential and is very sensitive. We've seen it in here, any slight on any stance or any leader of theirs and they take it as a slight on Christianity as a whole. Bono "kicking" out Robertson could jeopardize this campaign from a large influential group. And frankly this is a group that historically hasn't supported such campaigns, whereas the left has.
But I am turned off.

What the fuck do I care about how sensitive conservative Christians are? Its THEIR turn to change that. I am a Catholic Christian and I have the right to be pissed of by the complete American conservative Christian right. it doesn´t appeal to me at all, it doesn´t follow the teachings of Jesus at all, and probably one would need to explain the ten commandments to Mister assfucking Robertson.

Like I said, if he is that unimportant and everyone thinks he is a NUT, then why not take distance? Or could we suspect that the conservative religious right DON´T think he´s a nut, that democratically elected Presidents of other countries just should be killed?

Just for the reason of probably alienating some other NUTS - and everyone who supports or excuses Robertsons words, is a nut in my eyes - its not worth to support those. Next thing we know is the Ku Klux Klan utters something incredible, and in order not to scare the oh-so-sensible "Christian" Right, no one says ANYTHING against it.

IF Bono kicking out Robertson (or people like Helms, for that matter) "alienates" this group, like you fear, I really ask myself where the hell they stand. If this group decided to back off an extremely important humanity cause like the African cause is, just because one of their most extreme representatives is critisized (when they would have the Christian duty to critisize him and kick him out of their circles themselves), then the answer is very simple: I´ll put them ALL in bowl with NUTS like Robertson if they are not able to take distance from extremists. And I will light a big fire under that bowl, so their asses get burned.

Just imagine how it looks the other way round! Say, a leftist group supports the African cause, but at the same time makes statements like "Kill Bush". Would you advocate to just let them be and hush hush keep quiet, because otherwise some other leftists would be whining?

Pah. To all you so-called conservative Christians out there - in my eyes you have no right whatsoever to call yourself a brave Christian. The Pope - and he is a conservative Pope! - has advocated peace amongst all religions.

Yes, I am judging you and I take my right to do so, judge me in return if you will. You are pissing me off; you book-burners, killers, racists and warmongers are a shame to every serious Christian out there.
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:25 AM   #38
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
it doesn´t follow the teachings of Jesus at all,
You lost me here. Are you claiming to have the true way of following Jesus?
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:29 AM   #39
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And as to note a few deatails about President Chavez, I will post part of an article by Greg Palast here, a journalist (you can easily do a google search to find the whole article):

"What happened with Venezuela is that Hugo Chavez took Joe Stiglitz's advice as opposed to the World Bank's advice. Chavez passed two laws that were suggested by Stiglitz. Firsly, he changed the terms of trade. Venezuela was the biggest seller of oil to the United States, so he doubled the royalties — not the price to be paid by final consumers, but the royalties to be paid by the oil companies, mainly British Petroleum and Chevron — from 16 percent to thirty-something percent. To oil-man George W Bush, that was virtually an act of war. They're talking about going after Saddam Hussein, but the real war's against Hugo Chavez, for doubling the price of oil.

The second thing he did was what Stiglitz called "putting an end to landlordism". He said, "The Thatcherites talk about excessive taxes being a drain and discouraging businesses. The worst tax on this planet, which is driving it economically into the ground, the reason why millions are in poverty, is landlordism: the fact that most productive property on this planet is owned by people who are not the tillers. They take 50% of the crops — that's the worst, most horrendous tax on the planet." So Chavez decided that any land which is left fallow for two years — and there's lots of that in Venezuela, there's giant plantations where properties are not touched — that unused land goes to the landless. It's a simple law.

Two laws is all that Chavez has been able to pass on being elected president, even though he has control of Congress. And those two laws, land for the landless and higher taxes on foreign oil companies, mean that he's in economic war with America, Britain and his own elite. And so they decided to kill him. I'm not kidding: that's where it's heading right now.

I was ready to lose my lunch when I read the headlines about Hugo Chavez in my own paper, The Guardian. The line has been put out that he's a dictator. George W Bush was elected by computer in Florida, but the "dictator" is Hugo Chavez, elected by 70% of the popular vote — and no one questions the validity of that election. This is a popularly elected president with a popularly elected congress, and yet they keep talking about "the dictator". I was stunned and sickened that The Guardian would repeat this stuff, would swallow it whole.

The IMF has said such shaded things as "We're not going to get involved in the politics of Venezuela, we don't touch local politics. But if there were a transition government we would be willing to fund its operation." Basically the IMF is saying they'll pay for the coup d'état! No one is covering this. I understand John Pilger wrote an article saying, "Jeez, no-one's covering this!" Well I was trying to cover it, but I can't be everywhere at once.

Concerned, not only with what's happening, but with the lack of coverage. And with what we read in The Guardian, let alone the other papers: the false, phoney, fake, propagandistic bullshit coverage. Also I'm very concerned that because of this we're not getting the kind of support from progressive forces worldwide that we normally would see.

One reason that I think that the left worldwide has not been a big fan of Hugo Chavez is that he's not a Sandinista, he's not Allende, he's not a Marxist, he's just a guy from the streets, a reformer. He says "Let's help out the poor people", but without any big plans or giant ideology — no red flags, none of that. He's just a guy who says: the poor people in our nation have been fucked too long.

Chavez is not necessarily a lovable character, a good character, a sophisticated character. It's not a question of him — it's a question of supporting the poor who finally, through democratic means, said: "We'd like to have some of our economy. We are an oil exporting nation, why are we poor? We are a gigantic nation several times the size of Britain, with extraordinarily productive land. Why are we landless? Why are we hungry?" Chavez said: there's no reason. And basically for that the international financial community in Europe and America is at economic war with him."
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:35 AM   #40
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Pat Robertson is NOT a nutcase. The man is dead serious, and he is a mainstream, well-respected figure. He's not like Jerry Falwell...and was in a different class altogether from Jim Bakker and Tammy Fae. He's not some upstart. He founded a big university in Virginai that has churned out mainstream evengelical pastors for over 20 yrs. I remember watching him when I was a kid. That's the problem..I was a kid. Thank God, I outgrew him even before he turned corrupt.

That is what is so frightening and dangerous about him. I never thought he would radicalize like this. You would have never predicted it in, say, 1989. All these other upstarts..James Dobson, etc etc, are all trying to be like him, but they'll need another 20 yrs to approach his class. They have the politcal influcne but not the financial powerbase. He has a well-established business and Educational empire, a true "base of operations" every bit as powerful as a corporation. Again, this is what makes him so frightening.

We should not condemn Bono for assosciating with him, b/c he is a good actor. I am sure Robertson turned on the charm when Bono approcahed him. I have observed this decade that Bono has lost some of his edge in dealing with these people..or rather that they have learned how to neutralize him. He is used to dealing with recalcitrant politicans. He knows how to handle them. But when these politicians do their homework and study his methods, they turn his own weapons on him, and suck him in. Bush is the prime example of this.

The best thing I can say is, I HOPE someone informs Bono of this comment..and I hope Bono's response is a public one, aimed at his (Rebertson's) followers and the evangleical community, and NOT just a private telephone call saying, "Bob, what the heck were you saying?!?!?!" You can't mean that can you!??!" Because it will send fans like us the wrong message. Bono needs to temper a private response with public comments. I'm sure many in his own congragation are shocked.

What I REALLY think Robertson is upset about is China's approaching Venezuela this month to make trading deals over its oil, after its bid to buy that US oil company was stymied by a COngressional outcry. China is even worse than we are in its relentless thirst for oil. Want to know why we arent' doing anything about the genocide in Darfur? The dirty secret is, 5 or 6 years ago China approached the Sudanese regime regarding its oil (yes, Sudan has oil), and now China gets 7% of allits oil every year from Sudan. Of course, China is afraid to pressure the corrupt Sudanses regime over its genocide in its province of Darfur. And, of course, the West esp the US, does not want to jeapordize its business relationship with China by taking her to task over an area it is tacitly acknowledging as a Chinese spehere of influence. The Chinese are VERY touchy in matters like this. It would be like the Cold War all over again, if we did (so they say.)
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:37 AM   #41
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


But I am turned off.

What the fuck do I care about how sensitive conservative Christians are? Its THEIR turn to change that. I am a Catholic Christian and I have the right to be pissed of by the complete American conservative Christian right. it doesn´t appeal to me at all, it doesn´t follow the teachings of Jesus at all, and probably one would need to explain the ten commandments to Mister assfucking Robertson.

But this is not Bono's crusade to change the church, he's looking to get as many people behind this as possible, some you and I may consider evil, but he needs the backing of as many as possible in order for this to work.

No matter how much of a nut Pat Robertson is, a lot of the truth behind Robertson is not being exposed to the church here in the states. Here in the states the majority of Churches are still very conservative and do see him as a spokesperson.

I'm not saying it's right, but it's how it works. And like I said this isn't Bono's campaign to change that, the fact that he's getting some of these CC's on board with him is already change enough for many(like the Helms story) wouldn't have touched any project dealing with AIDS with a 20ft. pole.
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:42 AM   #42
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


You lost me here. Are you claiming to have the true way of following Jesus?
I KNOW that I lost people like you there, because conservative Christians have a serious problem being critisized (and that´s not meant personal at all, just to avoid future claims). That´s just the sentence that nails it right on the head - "You lost me there". Same what the rest of cons. Christians would probably say if Bono opened his mouth and critisized Robertson, see?

Wake up, man! You conservative Christians have a SERIOUS problem if you break off conversation or someone "loses" you just because he provokes you a little!

YES, I am claiming to have the true way of following Jesus. I take it from the Bible, you know. Just take a look there. 6th commandment.

And then tell me if you still think
a) Robertson is just a nut you can afford to ignore, or
b) he is such a nut that your oh-so-nice conservative Christian groups have the duty to critisize, being ashamed he calls himself a conservative Christian
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:47 AM   #43
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Originally posted by Teta040
Pat Robertson is NOT a nutcase. The man is dead serious, and he is a mainstream, well-respected figure. He's not like Jerry Falwell...
I very much disagree with this. I mean yes he has more respect than Faldwell, but I wouldn't call him mainstream at all. Maybe it depends on what circles you live in. Churches I grew up in we heard more about Dobson then Robertson.


Quote:
Originally posted by Teta040

I am sure Robertson turned on the charm when Bono approcahed him. I have observed this decade that Bono has lost some of his edge in dealing with these people..or rather that they have learned how to neutralize him. He is used to dealing with recalcitrant politicans. He knows how to handle them. But when these politicians do their homework and study his methods, they turn his own weapons on him, and suck him in. Bush is the prime example of this.

I think this is huge misconception. I don't think Bono's been neutralized at all, I just think he's found a smarter way to deal with it. Bono's worked harder in the last decade for the causes he believes in than in the early days. He talked more then, but he walks the walk more now. Getting up on stage and talking out against Bush now days would be like shooting himself in the foot, so he does it in more disceet ways. Bush hasn't sucked him into shit. He's playing these guys, just like I'm sure some are playing him...unfortunately that's how politics works. But let me ask you this, who's getting more done? The ones being outspoken or the ones playing the game?
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:56 AM   #44
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The arrogance of you statement is appalling. If you want to criticize, fine, make your statement - I can handle them. Hiding behind broad statements leave nothing to respond to.

As for the specific issue, your expectation that everyone (from Bono to conservative Christians) has a duty to condemn Robertson establishes a principle you really don't want to live by.

Yes, Robertson is a nut that I can afford to ignore. He is the Howard Stern of politics, interjecting wild statements to get people riled up. He's done this for years. And the vast majority of what are called "conservative Christians" ignore him as well.
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:03 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

But let me ask you this, who's getting more done? The ones being outspoken or the ones playing the game?
If you take a look at Bono´s (and ours) big heroes like MLK, I´d say, the outspoken. I appreciate the efforts of Bono, however, he´s walking a very thin line, and accusations of being neutralized don´t exist out of oblivion. I am far from thinking he is neutralized - the recent Live8 concerts being an example for that - but he shouldn´t exaggerate in "walking the walk and playing the game". Many eyes are watching him, and it is our duty to control the directions he takes, with the image of angel he has and likes to spread.
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