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Old 08-24-2005, 10:05 PM   #136
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Here or in reality?
Reality. One was a liberal radio show which by all honesty hasn't really gained any mainstream acceptance yet. The other a TV show which by most accounts, fortunate or not has some mainstream audience.

One made media attention, the other didn't even make it to Fox news...
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Old 08-24-2005, 10:31 PM   #137
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I don't favor "not guilty by reason of insanity" pleas. Guilty and insane works just fine.
Does that allow the interpretation that you consider Robertson to be insane and guilty?
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Old 08-25-2005, 07:34 AM   #138
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The Randi Rhodes was a skit. It wasn't bush getting shot it was the son shooting the father, but anyway...

There are some people taking Robertson seriously. And it appears we already have legal precedent to charge him.

Winston-Salem Journal, 8/24/05:

It appears that the Rev. Pat Robertson has lost his mind.

The televangelist from Virginia has violated all norms of religious and civil propriety in calling for the murder of Venezuela's president, Hugo Chavez.

[...]

As for Robertson, the Federal Communications Commission should revoke his license to broadcast. Issuing death threats is a crime. If Robertson can't be hauled into court for this, then he should at least be forced to surrender his right to the public's airwaves.

Robertson has long been controversial, but in recent years he has gone over the edge. This should be the last straw.

His license should be revoked.

Murder is not a family value.

— J.K.

Obligations Under Federal and International Law

Despite his apology, Pat Robertson should still be investigated -- and potentially prosecuted -- for calling for the murder of a democratically elected head of state. Under Title 18 of US Code Section 1116, "whoever kills or attempts to kill a foreign official, official guest, or internationally protected person shall be punished." Section 878 of the same title makes it a crime to "knowingly and willingly threaten" to commit the above crime.

The US government is also obligated under international law to prevent and punish acts of terrorism against foreign heads of state, if those acts are conceived of or planned on US territory. The 1973 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Crimes Against Internationally Protected Persons makes it a crime to commit a "murder, kidnapping, or other attack upon on the liberty of an internationally protected person;" [including] a "threat to commit any such attack."

The US is also a signatory to the 1971 Convention to Prevent and Punish Acts of Terrorism Taking the Form of Crimes Against Persons and Related Extortion that are of International Significance of the OAS, Article 8a of which obliges "[t]he contracting states undertake to cooperate among themselves by taking all the measures that they may consider effective, under their own laws, and especially those established in this convention, to prevent and punish acts of terrorism, especially kidnaping [sic], murder, and other assaults against the life or physical integrity of those persons to whom the state has the duty according to international law to give special protection, as well as extortion in connection with those crimes." This includes foreign heads of state as internationally protected persons.

The Christian Broadcasting Network should also be investigated for the potential illegality of using federally licensed airwaves to call for an assassination. In light of the $550,000 fine against CBS for the accidental airing of Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction," it would be extremely ironic if the CBN were not similarly punished for airing a call for terrorist homicide.

Considering the history of US involvement in the overthrow of democratically-elected governments, along with the current US hostility towards Venezuela, the incitement by a key Bush supporter to kill democratically-elected President Chávez should be a clarion call: It's time to turn over a new leaf in our policy towards Venezuela, and build relations of respect with the most popular democratically-elected leader in Latin America.

Deborah James is the Global Economy Director of Global Exchange, and a frequent traveler to Venezuela. She is reachable at deborah@globalexchange.org.
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:31 AM   #139
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Does the media's impression make the two situations different?

You so casually dismiss one as a "prank". Does that mean there are harmless calls for assassination? Are we overblowing this to berate Robertson??
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:42 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Does the media's impression make the two situations different?

You so casually dismiss one as a "prank". Does that mean there are harmless calls for assassination? Are we overblowing this to berate Robertson??
No, I'm just saying more harm can come from the one that doesn't have a tongue planted firmly in the cheek, that's all.
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Old 08-25-2005, 09:03 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Does the media's impression make the two situations different?

You so casually dismiss one as a "prank". Does that mean there are harmless calls for assassination? Are we overblowing this to berate Robertson??
Obviously you are too busy asking rhetorical questions for considering to reply to the two questions I have asked you, while everyone, me included, always answers yours.

Personally, I find this form of sublime ignorance to be a sign of disrespect towards your discussion partner. If you expect me to deal with your questions - and I did reply - I can expect the same of you.




[Disclaimer edit to add for the mods: Since I have been accused of personal attacks on here, I´d just like to state that this is not personal attack on a member in any way, but a mild and very politely expressed criticism in order to solve the problem I described above.]
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Old 08-25-2005, 02:38 PM   #142
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I just got this in my regular e-mails from Sojourners. If it interests you, check out www.sojo.net or read "God's Politics" by Jim Wallis.



Pat Robertson: An embarrassment to the church
by Jim Wallis

Pat Robertson is an embarrassment to the church and a danger to American politics.

Robertson is known for his completely irresponsible statements - that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were due to American feminists and liberals, that true Christians could vote only for George W. Bush, that the federal judiciary is a greater threat to America than those who flew the planes into the World Trade Center Towers, and the list goes on. Robertson even took credit once for diverting a hurricane. But his latest outburst may take the cake.

On Monday, Robertson called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. Robertson is worried about Chavez's critiques of American power and behavior in the world, especially because Venezuela is sitting on all that oil. We simply can't have an anti-American political leader who could raise the price of gas. So let's just kill him, the famous television preacher seriously suggested. After all, having some of our "covert operatives" take out the troublesome Venezuelan leader would be cheaper than another $200 billion war, he said.

It's clear Robertson must not have first asked himself "What would Jesus do?" But the teachings of Jesus have never been very popular with Robertson. He gets his religion elsewhere, from the twisted ideologies of an American brand of right-wing fundamentalism that has always been more nationalist than Christian. Apparently, Robertson didn't even remember what the Ten Commandments say, though he has championed their display on the walls of every American courthouse. That irritating one about "Thou shalt not kill" seems to rule out the killing of foreign leaders. But this week, simply putting biblical ethics aside, Robertson virtually issued an American religious fatwah for the murder of a foreign leader - on national television no less. That may be a first.

Yesterday Robertson "apologized." First he denied saying what he had said, but it was on the videotape (it's tough when they record you breaking the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus). Then he said that "taking out" Chavez might not require killing him, and perhaps kidnapping a duly elected leader would do. But Robertson does now say that using the word "assassination" was wrong and that he had been frustrated by Chavez - the old "my frustration made me say that somebody should be killed" argument. But the worst thing about Robertson's apology was that he compared himself to Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the German church leader and martyr who ultimately joined in a plot to assassinate Adolph Hitler.

Robertson's political and theological reasoning is simply unbelievable. Chavez, a democratically elected leader in no less than three internationally certified votes, has been an irritant to the Bush administration, but has yet to commit any holocausts. Nor does his human rights record even approach that of the Latin American dictators who have been responsible for massive violations of human rights and the deaths of tens of thousands of people (think of the military regimes of Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, and Guatemala). Robertson never criticized them, perhaps because many of them were supported by U.S. military aid and training.

This incident reveals that Robertson does not believe in democracy; he believes in theocracy. And he would like governments, including our own, to implement his theological agenda, perhaps legislate Leviticus, and "take out" those who disagree.

Robertson's American fundamentalist ideology gives a lot of good people a bad name. World evangelical leaders have already responded with alarm and disbelief. Robertson's words will taint and smear other evangelical Christians and put some in actual jeopardy, such as Venezuelan evangelicals. Most conservative evangelical Christians are appalled by Robertson's hateful and literally murderous words, and it's time for them to say so. To their credit, the World Evangelical Alliance and the National Association of Evangelicals have already denounced Robertson's words. When will we hear from some of the groups from the "Religious Right," such as the Family Research Council, Southern Baptists, and other leaders like James Dobson, Tony Perkins, and Chuck Colson?

Robertson's words fuel both anti-Christian and anti-American sentiments around the world. It's difficult for an American government that has historically plotted against leaders in Cuba, Chile, the Congo, South Vietnam, and elsewhere to be easily believed when it disavows Robertson's call to assassinate Chavez. But George Bush must do so anyway, in the strongest terms possible.

It's time to name Robertson for what he is: an American fundamentalist whose theocratic views are not much different from the "Muslim extremists" he continually assails. It's time for conservative evangelical Christians in America, who are not like Islamic fundamentalists or Robertson, to distance themselves from his embarrassing and dangerous religion.

And it's time for Christian leaders of all stripes to call on Robertson not just to apologize, but to retire.
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Old 08-25-2005, 05:01 PM   #143
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Sister, you beat me to it.

And since it was Senor Chavez that so irked the good Rev. Roberton, here's an article on him, too from that liberal rag, the Christian Science Monitor. (Should this be its own thread?)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0825/p01s04-woam.html
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Old 08-25-2005, 05:19 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Obviously you are too busy asking rhetorical questions for considering to reply to the two questions I have asked you, while everyone, me included, always answers yours.

Personally, I find this form of sublime ignorance to be a sign of disrespect towards your discussion partner. If you expect me to deal with your questions - and I did reply - I can expect the same of you.
If you want to ask me a question, you can always PM me. I am sure I have had questions left unanswered, but I see no reason to grandstand over them.

As for your last question,
Quote:
Does that allow the interpretation that you consider Robertson to be insane and guilty?
I'm not quite sure what you are asking in that there is no criminal charge in this matter. And as for the casual use of the term "nutjob" - I doubt many here would take that as a medical diagnosis of insanity.

But then again, with partisian rhetoric rampant, I could be wrong.
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Old 08-25-2005, 05:41 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I'm not quite sure what you are asking in that there is no criminal charge in this matter. And as for the casual use of the term "nutjob" - I doubt many here would take that as a medical diagnosis of insanity.

But then again, with partisian rhetoric rampant, I could be wrong.
There could very well be a criminal charge if the Justice Dept didn't lick the Christian Rights feet.

I know I'm on the opposite spectrum politiacally, but I don't see this as partisan. This is a supposed Christian leader advocating assassination, much like they did for Martin Luther King ans as a Christian and a US citizen it pisses me off. We really need another "nutjob" representing us to the world.

Rather than always dismissing things on the basis of partisan politics, I would love to see your rejection or support for his statements.
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Old 08-25-2005, 05:50 PM   #146
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Rather than always dismissing things on the basis of partisan politics, I would love to see your rejection or support for his statements.
You can find my rejection of Robertson's statements more than once in this thread. Please check for yourself and reassess your comment.
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Old 08-25-2005, 06:01 PM   #147
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I wouldn't mind seeing the guy busted myself, if only to prove that guy doesn't speak for me, and as a Christian and an American it's very annoying.
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:31 PM   #148
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What should he be prosecuted for?

Last time I checked, even raging whackos still had the right to free speech.

Unless the Patriot Act took that away too?

Which would be hilarious if that idiot were prosecuted under the Republican destruction of the Constitution.
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Old 08-25-2005, 09:59 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


If you want to ask me a question, you can always PM me.
No, I´m not a premium member. Thats why it is very polite to reply right here.

So you reject Robertson´s statements, that´s good to know.

Next question: Since you say you reject them, can one suppose

A) you don´t think the Christian Coalition of America* is a good and righteous representation for Christians (conservative, liberal, evangelists, Catholics, wherever one stands in the wide spectrum)?

Or

B) do you reject the comments of Robertson in that specific case and would rather think that generally, the Christian Coalition of America is an organization that represents the Bible´s righteous teachings?

*the organization of Robertson, which is described as being the "largest and most active conservative grassroots political organization in America" on its website
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Old 08-25-2005, 10:00 PM   #150
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Originally posted by martha
What should he be prosecuted for?
Check the post of Scarletwine above.
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