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Old 09-28-2004, 04:46 PM   #166
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Originally posted by ImOuttaControl
After reading peoples comments on this subject, I'm amazed at how ignorant some people are!

We're getting good at the finger pointing, aren't we?
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Old 09-28-2004, 06:45 PM   #167
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ImOuttaControl made an interesting defense. Actually I've read a similar one. I used to be anti-guns but after finding out that fully automatic weapons are illegal in terms of ownership my stance softened. Its changed more b/c my philosophy on legislating people's personal freedoms has changed as well. I think its somewhat unfair to legislate the banning of guns when its a 2nd Ammendment right and from the looks of things, gun accidents and crimes are result of a small group of people. Alcohol is one America's most beloved beverages but are we really being fair by not banning it's sale and consumption considering how much death and pain it causes?

There is no denying the appeal of guns comes from the recreational aspects (people have said shooting them is more fun then it appears), hobbyists (collectors), and self defense (Lord knows guns have helped save lives). Are people gonna punish the lawfully abiding citizens? That to me is unfair.

People who are irresponsible, people who have bad motivations, etc. are seemingly the problem. I don't see the majority of gun owners being crazy redneck gangsters who leave their guns on top of their kid's desk.

Cars, alcohol, etc... all have caused deaths, abuse, etc... but honestly, no one is going to ban those things, but to ban guns b/c they are scary looking or b/c of someone's own opinion that owning a gun is stupid is not a gun reason ("I don't see the purpose of owning a gun," arguers) People say, its different, but I don't see how it is any different in terms of the end result.

With that said, I'm supportive of "gun licenses."
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Old 09-28-2004, 07:53 PM   #168
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The assault weapons ban was a poor attempt at best at controlling these types of weapons. It was really a token effort. Manufacturers rebranded the explicitly named weapons and similar weapons which were as deadly were allowed to be sold anyway. With that said, I don't see the need for these weapons to be sold, but this whole hype is just politics at play. Most weapons of this type today are illegally brough into the country from cheaper manufactuers in eastern europe at this point.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:49 AM   #169
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So we need a more efficent gun control than the assault weapons ban!
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Old 09-29-2004, 03:34 AM   #170
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The ONLY people who need any kind of gun are the military, police and farmers.

It's not ignorance but common sense.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:07 AM   #171
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Sorry I don't buy the alcohol and cars defense. Yes cars do and can kill, so can alcohol, and the combination is already illegal. This is a case of personal responsibility. But when was the last time you heard of someone delibrately taking either one of these to kill a group of kids or hold up a bank?

The 2nd ammendment doesn't make sense anymore. You can't take up arms against a government, believe me you'll be outgunned. When your military had the same technology as you, yes it made sense, unfortunately you are now at their mercy. Why should we allow citizens to own enough weapons to arm a small army? Because it's fun? I've heard drugs can be fun too.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:09 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
The ONLY people who need any kind of gun are the military, police and farmers.

It's not ignorance but common sense.
If I was a gun collector and gun enthusiast, I would complain that you're taking away my livelihood and hobby.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:18 AM   #173
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and i'd say you could possibly pose a risk to society by possessing such dangerous items.

there is no way from an application of telling who is of sane enough mind to be able to responsibly manage a gun collection, or even one.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:30 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Sorry I don't buy the alcohol and cars defense. Yes cars do and can kill, so can alcohol, and the combination is already illegal. This is a case of personal responsibility. But when was the last time you heard of someone delibrately taking either one of these to kill a group of kids or hold up a bank?

The 2nd ammendment doesn't make sense anymore. You can't take up arms against a government, believe me you'll be outgunned. When your military had the same technology as you, yes it made sense, unfortunately you are now at their mercy. Why should we allow citizens to own enough weapons to arm a small army? Because it's fun? I've heard drugs can be fun too.
Of course the combination of alcohol and cars is techincally illegal. However that crime still happens in spite of said legislation. Alcohol also helps bring about abuse ranging from spusal abuse to child abuse and if the abused is unlucky enough, death. Alcohol helps bring about vandalism, violence (I used to live in a college town), and at the least crappy behavior.

Seeing as how alcohol lowers inhibitions and is actually a major cause of these "problems," why not ban/outlaw the root cause? Wouldn't that be more effective method then half assed laws? But its not gonna happen b/c the underlying argument is that the instances of wrongdoing/ bad behavior apply to a small percentage of people and the majority of people who consume alcohol shouldn't be "punished" for the wrongs of the minority. Same as guns. There are law abiding gunowners who have a genuine interest in their hobby, to take it away b/c a "minority" of owners misuse their privilege is unfair.

Almost all analogies break down in some form or fashion, but the gist of the argument is there.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:36 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
and i'd say you could possibly pose a risk to society by possessing such dangerous items.

there is no way from an application of telling who is of sane enough mind to be able to responsibly manage a gun collection, or even one.
But you don't know me. If I was a criminal, you could make a case. But if I'm just an enthusiastic gun owner, you're taking away a hobby or my liberty and my pursuit of happiness.

OLD people pose a risk to me when I see them driving but I'm not willing enough to take awy their driving privileges.

There are some groups of people who shouldn't have kids, get married, have specific jobs, etc... there is no application to tell whether a person will commit a crime by being abusive, violent, etc. unless that person has already committed the crime.

Anyways, I don't believe removing guns from responsible gun owners will actually take guns away from criminals who are the main reasons gun violence is such a scary thing.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:47 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flying FuManchu


Of course the combination of alcohol and cars is techincally illegal. However that crime still happens in spite of said legislation. Alcohol also helps bring about abuse ranging from spusal abuse to child abuse and if the abused is unlucky enough, death. Alcohol helps bring about vandalism, violence (I used to live in a college town), and at the least crappy behavior.

Seeing as how alcohol lowers inhibitions and is actually a major cause of these "problems," why not ban/outlaw the root cause? Wouldn't that be more effective method then half assed laws? But its not gonna happen b/c the underlying argument is that the instances of wrongdoing/ bad behavior apply to a small percentage of people and the majority of people who consume alcohol shouldn't be "punished" for the wrongs of the minority. Same as guns. There are law abiding gunowners who have a genuine interest in their hobby, to take it away b/c a "minority" of owners misuse their privilege is unfair.

Almost all analogies break down in some form or fashion, but the gist of the argument is there.
To say alcohol is a root cause is irresponsible. Studies have shown that violent people will be violent regardless of alcohol. Yes there are law abiding gun owners. A neighbor of mine was a law abiding citizen for 62 years of his life until he had an argument with his wife went out bought a gun and killed her that night...crime of passion. Guns were invented for one intent, collecting them doesn't change that fact.

PS. I agree with you about old people behind the wheel, but I believe they should be retested.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:55 AM   #177
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Alcohol + Guns = Bad Combination

I wonder what about safety mechanisms. Such as fingerprint ID on weapons so that only the licenced owner can use the weapon, this would eliminate "accidental" deaths where someone steals or picks up a registered weapon and someone winds up hurt.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:56 AM   #178
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Maybe root cause is too strong b/c I believe in personal responsibilty but alcohol does lower inhibitions and for some to such a degree that crimes do happen. IS a drunken rage more likely to happen or drunk driving for that matter if alcohol wasn't around. It wouldn't.

The story about the gunowner is sad, but then its unfair b/c you're characterizing all gunowners as being the same personality. That is unfair.
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Old 09-29-2004, 07:37 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flying FuManchu
Maybe root cause is too strong b/c I believe in personal responsibilty but alcohol does lower inhibitions and for some to such a degree that crimes do happen. IS a drunken rage more likely to happen or drunk driving for that matter if alcohol wasn't around. It wouldn't.

The story about the gunowner is sad, but then its unfair b/c you're characterizing all gunowners as being the same personality. That is unfair.
No I wasn't characterizing any group, just the fact that anyone is succeptable to snapping at any moment or is capable of making rash decisions.

I know responsible drug users but that's still illegal. Why? Personal health? No, there are many things legal that are just as unhealthy.
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Old 09-29-2004, 08:01 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
The 2nd ammendment doesn't make sense anymore. You can't take up arms against a government, believe me you'll be outgunned. When your military had the same technology as you, yes it made sense, unfortunately you are now at their mercy. Why should we allow citizens to own enough weapons to arm a small army? Because it's fun? I've heard drugs can be fun too.

If the 2nd Amendment doesn't make sense, the appropriate solution would be to repeal the Amendment, instead of countless attempts at restricting the rights created by the Amendment.
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