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Old 03-25-2003, 12:11 PM   #91
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I agree with what amna said...I come here but I rarely post because it's frutile.
If people can't see how war will only cause more aggrivation and dissent and NOT peace, I will not try and post and post and post in an effort to persuade them.
Not even the world wars produced peace. Hiltler and his regime was overthrown but the ensuing years brought more and more turmoil derived from that war.

If you think the Middle East will be a peaceful land after the US has gone and dealt with them peacemeal and imposed democracy on everyone then you are sadly mistaken. I will bet my life on the fact that after this war the Iraqis' situation will hardly be eased.

The idea that implanting democracy into "conquered" foreign countries is the way to go is erroneuous. It just sad that we never learn from the past.

10 or 15 years from now I estimate that many of the "pro-war" people here (sickening term, really) will have a change of heart once the full picture has been brought into the light.
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Old 03-25-2003, 09:49 PM   #92
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This artucle is a good example why I won't shut up now that we are at war.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15453

Here is a smidgen:

The following Saturday, after U.S. forces had shocked and awed Baghdad and the rest of the world with a brutal all-night pummeling, a more august group of speakers took turns at the podium in the chapel at American University to denounce Bush's doctrine of preemptive war and the imperialist posture implied therein. A Nobel Peace Prize winner, retired military officers, Vietnam veterans, former intelligence agents, scholars, celebrated leakers of Pentagon Papers one by one they laid out their arguments in the language and environment of the academy. ...

"The White House policy is frightening, and it basically spells out empire for the U.S. I don't know what else to call it," says Sheehan-Miles. "This is such a dramatic change in what American foreign policy is all about that we should be having a huge public debate about it. And we're not all we're having a debate about are these other things: Saddam Hussein, regime change something does need to be done about Saddam Hussein, but this isn't it."


Coming from a combat veteran, Sheehan-Miles' words might carry extra weight for the 76 percent of Americans who now support the war. But if Sheehan-Miles, who left the Army as a conscientious objector after his unit's killing of undefended Iraqis left him badly shaken, isn't convincing enough for Middle America, there's always Ret. Rear Admiral Gene LaRocque.


LaRocque survived the destruction of his ship at Pearl Harbor to fight in World War II and command a nuclear-armed carrier task force during the Cold War. Later he was a planner in the Pentagon. No squishy-minded peacenik, he.


On Saturday, LaRocque stood at the microphone in full Navy regalia and in mild, avuncular tones excoriated those who would cast aspersions on the right to dissent in wartime, the burgeoning militarism taking root here and the nation's "pride and joy" in its precision weapons. And he criticized one of the main principles enshrined in the Bush doctrine: That it is America's "responsibility to lead" the rest of the world to freedom.


"Is it the sole responsibility of the U.S. to decide which nations' form of government will stand and which will fall?" he asked. "Is it the responsibility of the U.S. to kill or destroy to bring about a change of government? I think not. I don't believe George Bush has the right to kill one person to bring about a change in government."

The veterans really make sense.
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Old 03-25-2003, 11:34 PM   #93
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Scarletwine,

Maybe they WILL shut up if they are declred terrorist

and given LIFE SENTENSES.

Quote:
Antiterror bill meets opposition at hearing

03/25/03

HARRY ESTEVE

SALEM -- A bill that would define violent protesters as terrorists and subject them to possible life imprisonment came under attack Monday at a packed and sometimes tense legislative hearing.

Antiwar activists and civil libertarians showed up in force to criticize Senate Bill 742, which they said contains overly broad language and gives police expanded powers to investigate people based on ethnicity.

"We are living in the McCarthy era all over again," said Patty Caldwell, an antiwar activist from Welches. "Then, you were called a communist. Now, you're called a terrorist sympathizer."

The statements came during the bill's first hearing in the Senate Judiciary Committee. Committee Chairman Sen. John Minnis, R-Wood Village, author of the bill, threatened to clear the hearing room after repeated bursts of applause for speakers and interruptions shouted from the audience.

Minnis said he introduced the measure to put all crimes that could be construed as terrorism into a single law with tough punishment guidelines, and to require Oregon police agencies to cooperate with federal investigations into terrorists.

But the wording of the bill left many concerned that it could be applied to relatively minor acts of vandalism or misbehavior during a demonstration. The bill applies to acts of violence committed while someone is disrupting commerce, transportation, schools or universities.

Anyone convicted of terrorism would get an automatic life sentence with a 25-year minimum before being considered for parole.

"Many of the protesters arrested last week in Portland for misdemeanor conduct may have qualified for prosecution" under SB 742, said Susan Russell of the Oregon Criminal Lawyers Association. Crimes, such as throwing a rock through a window, or lighting flags on fire while demonstrating, do not warrant potential life sentences, she said.

After the hearing, the judiciary committee's three Democratic members spoke against the bill, all but killing its chances of surviving intact. All Senate committees are divided equally between Democrats and Republicans, and a bill must get a majority of committee votes to move forward.

"This bill chips away at the very freedom we profess to enjoy in the face of terrorism," said Sen. Charlie Ringo, D-Beaverton. "I would not want our servicemen in the Middle East and elsewhere to return and find that the freedoms they are risking their lives for overseas have been damaged while entrusted to the care of the Oregon Senate."

Sen. Ted Ferrioli of John Day, one of three Republicans on the committee, said Oregon law needs to be changed to more clearly define acts of civil disobedience and acts of terrorism. But two other Democrats on the committee, Vicki Walker of Eugene and Ginny Burdick of Portland, said they won't support the bill.

Minnis said he will rewrite portions of the bill in an attempt to address concerns about the broad language and role Oregon police agencies would have in federal terror investigations. No additional hearings have been scheduled on the bill.

"Unfortunately, there's a lot of hysteria associated with some of the original language" of the bill, he said. "I will bring something back and see if it works." Harry Esteve: 503-221-8234; harryesteve@news.oregonian.com


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Old 03-26-2003, 12:09 AM   #94
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Wow. I always thought Oregon was a fairly liberal state...
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Old 03-26-2003, 12:16 AM   #95
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me.

You have got to be kidding. I ask for all of you on this forum to at least uphold our right to discuss, argue, dissent, ect.

I swear if I didn't believe the discourse we have had on this forum, leading up to war and until now a God (one of his greatest works) right, I would have to resort to leaving the country of my love or to jopin in civil disobediance with others.

I hope this is more propaganda.
Let us remember we will be one nation again, with the same economic, education. and poor homeless, AIDS infected problems we had before the war.
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Old 03-26-2003, 12:22 AM   #96
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I'd say that bill was so fucking unconstitutional it's not even funny, but many of our legislators could give a fuck about our Constitution.
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Old 03-26-2003, 12:26 AM   #97
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Don't I agree!

But in better notes the Senate (R maj.) cut Dubya's tax cut in half. It will not survive in his form.
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Old 03-26-2003, 12:28 AM   #98
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It makes me sick to read that. And FYI, Oregon is pretty 50\50 when it comes to liberal/conservative. There are pockets of very liberal (Eugene), and just barely liberal (Portland), but the rest of the state is pretty conservative.
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Old 03-26-2003, 03:53 AM   #99
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ppl dont find really themselves until they fully embrace Republicanism.
:

thank u-
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http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...32503-298h.jpg

PS- "am i buggin ya, well I didnt mean to bug ya MISTER"
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Old 03-26-2003, 04:47 AM   #100
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Thanks for posting that article, Deep.

Can a thing like that really get the majority of votes?!?

Nice article, Scarletwine. I agree!
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Old 03-26-2003, 08:51 AM   #101
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Just In ....

During the press conference it was reported that Dick Cheney's daughter is going to Bagdad to act as a human shield. Talk about losing the PR campaign at home.

Anybody have any links for this?

Also the General admitted to using DU in a small portion of our bombs, missiles. He also said the dust from the bombs contain contaniments in close contact. This puts our troops at danger as well as Iraqi's for, sorry I forget how many B of years.
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Old 03-26-2003, 09:25 AM   #102
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Re: Just In ....

Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
During the press conference it was reported that Dick Cheney's daughter is going to Bagdad to act as a human shield. Talk about losing the PR campaign at home.

Anybody have any links for this?
Cheney: No daughters as human shields
From the International Desk
Published 3/25/2003 12:22 PM
View printer-friendly version


WASHINGTON, March 25 (UPI) -- Vice President Dick Cheney's office denied reports on Tuesday that either of his daughters was even considering becoming a human shield in Iraq.

"Neither daughter even has plans to travel to that region, let alone Iraq," a member of the vice president's staff told United Press International in Washington. Elizabeth, 36, is married with three children in Washington, where she is deputy assistant secretary for Near-East affairs at the State Department. Mary, 34, has just completed her master's degree of business administration at Denver University.

Reports earlier on Tuesday suggested Cheney was on his way to Jordan to dissuade one of his daughters from joining the so-called human shield volunteers in Iraq. The shields are civilians, usually foreigners, who place themselves around hospitals, schools and other installations in an effort to keep opposing military forces from targeting them.

The United States has reiterated that it does not target civilian facilities and indeed has no plans to during its operations in Iraq.

When asked where the daughters were now, the staff member said, "Both the vice president and his daughters are in the United States."

A U.S. Embassy spokesman in Amman, the Jordanian capital, also denied that Cheney was on his way to Jordan: "The embassy has no information that the U.S. vice president will arrive in Jordan Tuesday to convince one of his daughters not to travel to Iraq to join human shields opposed to war," he said.


Copyright 2001-2003 United Press International
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Old 03-26-2003, 09:38 AM   #103
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Thanks. I thought that was pretty outthere.
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Old 03-26-2003, 04:14 PM   #104
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http://www.m27coalition.org/

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Old 03-26-2003, 04:34 PM   #105
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I met someone who was going to be a human shield at a party about a month ago. He was leaving the next day for Baghdad. He seemed kind of lost (although I don't know how someone who is going off to be a human shield should seem). I didn't know what to say...so I just said, "Well, nice to meet you...take care..."

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