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Old 03-23-2003, 07:05 PM   #46
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I think the saying "support our troops" is wrong, As a protestor I pray for the safety of the men and women in combat. I think that is what most people think that saying means.
But I do not support their actions or the actions of my government in the manner they are going about the removal of Sadaam. That is regardless of the wish for the people of Iraq to be free of him.
Rummys thoughts that they would lay down their arms and kiss us has been dispelled in the last 24 hrs. After all we are invading their country. He may be a bastard but he is an Iraqi,

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft are the real anit-Americans.

By the way we've killed more of our own than they have.
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Old 03-23-2003, 07:34 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono
It is a good sign that both ( anti and pro war ) sides can go out on the streets to make their point.
But I don't think it's wise for the anti-war crowd to register its protest at this time. The right time is when they actually have a chance of stopping the war. That is, when masses of Iraqi civilians and/or coalition forces start dying, God forbid.
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Old 03-23-2003, 07:41 PM   #48
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I think the protest and world opinion are preventing the Pentagon from pulling out all the stops
and leveling Bahgdad.
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Old 03-23-2003, 07:53 PM   #49
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And more to the point, you've killed more British too!!!

But well said Scarletwine. I do not want any troops to die. I dont pray, but i hope this war is a bloodless on all sides as possible.

Saddam Hussein is a complete bastard but the way the co-alition is going about this is completely wrong and will lead to MANY more problems than it will solve.
I protest becaue I believe in a better world. I have to fight each battle on its own. And how can people say that once war has started its worthless to protest? Protest ended Vietnam did it not?
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Old 03-23-2003, 07:53 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep in HELL
I think the protest and world opinion are preventing the Pentagon from pulling out all the stops
and leveling Bahgdad.
I disagree. I don't think the protests are preventing diddly squat.

Bush has said from the very beginning that what he wants to do is take out the saddam regime, not kill civilians. The "shock and awe" (ie: precision point bombing) was designed to do just that - destroy as many military targets and kill as many Saddam leaders as possible.
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Old 03-23-2003, 08:23 PM   #51
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Originally posted by The Absent One
And more to the point, you've killed more British too!!!

But well said Scarletwine. I do not want any troops to die. I dont pray, but i hope this war is a bloodless on all sides as possible.

Saddam Hussein is a complete bastard but the way the co-alition is going about this is completely wrong and will lead to MANY more problems than it will solve.
I protest becaue I believe in a better world. I have to fight each battle on its own. And how can people say that once war has started its worthless to protest? Protest ended Vietnam did it not?
I was including the UK soldiers as part of the coalition. Actually more UK have died than US and their numbers are much fewer.

Now it was just reported that the coalition killed an independant journalist. I'll bet he has a camera on him and might project the wrong IMAGES.

I am also sorry for ALL the deaths.
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Old 03-23-2003, 08:29 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine

I'll bet he has a camera on him and might project the wrong IMAGES.
Scarletwine,

I know you care deeply about this issue. I know you care for the safety of our soldiers and for innocent victems in the war.

I do however have to express how offesive your comment above is. If you do however have some type of proof that US Soldiers are killing reporters that are photgraphing things and are being killed because of what they have photographed, I will gladly join you in your outrage. However your comment above, without such proof is a pretty God Awful charge to level against the men and women serving our country.

Thanks,

Matt
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Old 03-23-2003, 08:29 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Absent One
And how can people say that once war has started its worthless to protest? Protest ended Vietnam did it not?
I don't know if you're referring to me, but I said that the time to protest is when it is evident that the war is a failure, i.e. when there are reports of massive Iraqi civilian casualties and/or coalition casualties. (Why should we take a chance on war when the possibility of failure is real? Because the risk strikes me as not-very-large. Saddam tortures and terrorizes his civilians daily. We'd have to carpet-bomb Iraq indiscriminately for months to match the damage Saddam does to his country. On the other hand, the reward is great.)

The problem with some elements of the anti-war movement is their refusal to acknowledge the possibility that the war might be a success. Here "success" means that (1) Saddam is gone, (2) not too much blood is shed, and (3) the seeds from which a democracy in Iraq can grow are planted.

In fact, some real blingwads like Chrisse Hynde (from the Pretenders) have said on record that they hope the US gets its ass kicked in this war.
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Old 03-23-2003, 09:11 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Scarletwine,

I know you care deeply about this issue. I know you care for the safety of our soldiers and for innocent victems in the war.

I do however have to express how offesive your comment above is. If you do however have some type of proof that US Soldiers are killing reporters that are photgraphing things and are being killed because of what they have photographed, I will gladly join you in your outrage. However your comment above, without such proof is a pretty God Awful charge to level against the men and women serving our country.

Thanks,

Matt
I do care deeply about this issue and I also know how the carnage inflicted on Iraqi's, including soldiers was hushed up in Desert Storm. If it wasn't for independant journalist we wouldn't have know about the death's of retreating Iraqi soldiers. Have you not seen the pictures of the plows and dead bodies on the front of our tanks. Soldiers saying we buried Iraqi's in trenches alive?

However you are right about my having no proof about us targeting the reporter. I'm sure it was an accident but I do have historical porof of Rumsfeld's dislike of media and how dangerous he thinks they can be to the current motives. I think that's why he imbedded them ( in bed, meaning attachments, lack of neutrality) and they have warned against rogur journalist (but we are now an official rogue nation).

It's weird but in a way this issue has polarized me more than any in my life. I hope I can follow my heart as far as it leads me.
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Old 03-23-2003, 09:14 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer



In fact, some real blingwads like Chrisse Hynde (from the Pretenders) have said on record that they hope the US gets its ass kicked in this war.
do you have a sorce for this,
besides someone like Limbaugh,
I know she made some remarks at a club date as the intro to her song "loser".
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Old 03-23-2003, 09:25 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine


I do care deeply about this issue and I also know how the carnage inflicted on Iraqi's, including soldiers was hushed up in Desert Storm. If it wasn't for independant journalist we wouldn't have know about the death's of retreating Iraqi soldiers. Have you not seen the pictures of the plows and dead bodies on the front of our tanks. Soldiers saying we buried Iraqi's in trenches alive?
I disagree comletely with your interpretation of the facts. Amazing it was so covered up that FRONTLINE did a whole documentary on this years ago.

I am guessing you are referring to the HIGHWAY of DEATH and the paths we plowed though their trenches to allow our vehicles to pass through their lines. There have been threads already here discussing them both and I have taken the opposite side of you on these issues from the last war.

I am not going to derail this thread going into events from 12 years ago with you, that depending on your source and mine, can have very different interpretations.

As to Mr. Rumsfeld hating the media so what!!!! You implied that an American soldier intentionally killed an imbedded reporter becasue of photgraphs.
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Old 03-23-2003, 09:36 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
do you have a sorce for this,
besides someone like Limbaugh,
I know she made some remarks at a club date as the intro to her song "loser".
Those may be the remarks I'm talking about.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...03/DD99951.DTL

-----------------
Between songs, the pugnacious Hynde, in a classic black T-shirt and jeans, bantered and battled with the crowd. She dedicated "You Know Who Your Friends Are" to "all you junkies and f--," gave a shout-out to the late Joe Strummer, opined that she hopes the United States loses if it goes to war with Iraq ("Bring it on! Give us what we deserve!"), and introduced the song "Fools Must Die" with the self-deprecating quip, "I'll show you how it's done."

<snip>
-----------------

I don't claim sentiment like this to be representative of the entire anti-war movement. But it sickens me nonetheless.
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Old 03-23-2003, 09:44 PM   #58
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Deadsox,
I didn't imply to that I hinted at it's possibilty. A rhetorical comment. A thought provoking idea.

The same way propaganda works. I also reitereated that I was sure it was an accident.

edited cause I'm trting to watch tv and type
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Old 03-23-2003, 10:24 PM   #59
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Why do people think they can support the troops but not the mission. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Asking us to believe that toad of Self justification to yourselves is asinine. However, If we are to have it your way, we are to believe that in supporting the troops, you also support the Command Leadership of the troops.. Including the Commander in Chief.. Our very own leader of the free world. Don't you love how things work out sometimes?

Oh yeah.. Please now refer to these POW's as Hostages, as with the evidence of execution style killings, that is all they are now.


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Old 03-23-2003, 10:41 PM   #60
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You can support the troops without supporting the war, or war in general. I pray for the safety and healthy of our men and women in uniform. I will not call them "baby-killers" or the like when they come home. I think they are brave and selfless individuals.

But I still don't know how I feel about this war. And I support the troops so much that I would prefer that none of them die, or are tortured or wounded. I support the troops so much that I hope they can get the hell out of there and stay safe.

I am anti-war precisely because I support our troops.
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