Merged: Anti-war protesters are going too far + should be kept quiet

[Screaming Flower]

I thought the luxury of protesting and speaking your mind was acquired in the Constitution.

who do you think protects the freedoms of the constitution? the constitution would be nothing more than a piece of paper if people weren't willing to fight to protect it.

 

[deep]

because they're putting their lives on the line for your freedom. we wouldn't have the luxury of protesting or speaking our minds if they weren't making the ultimate sacrifice.

I think this is blurring the lines.

How is the action in Iraq protecting our freedom?

 

[martha]

while I agree that they have the right to peaceful protest, there are those who incite the cops by spitting on them and curse and scream and purposely stir the crowd into a battle against the police.
that doesn't help anyone, the cops are just there to do their jobs.

Not all 100,000 were doing this. And be careful of the "just doing their jobs" mindset.

I'll be back; my cornbread's ready to come out of the oven.

 

[U2girl]

who do you think protects the freedoms of the constitution? the constitution would be nothing more than a piece of paper if people weren't willing to fight to protect it.

In most peaceful countries around the world freedoms of constitution don't need to be protected, as they're not threatened in everyday life, assuming normal cirumstances.
If necessary, law and law enforcement (police) are used for that.

That fight you're talking about would be the Independence war?

 

[martha]

While I don't know exactly what went on in NYC (so there is a chance I'm talking out of my ass), cops have been known in the past to make sure that protesters which with they disagree have a hard time expressing themselves peacefully. (Think back to anti-Klan marches.) So let's wait and see what really happened, and how many of the 100,000 were misbehaving.

 

[Gickies Gageeze]

screw you if you think you can tell me to keep quiet. screw all of you who dont want to hear what i say, ill say it with the protesters, and we'll all say it as loud as we can. fortunately for the whitehouse, they appear to have soundproof walls.

this topic is rediculous. absolutely horrible. and the fact so many of you dont appear to be outraged by this is disheartening.

 

[martha]

who do you think protects the freedoms of the constitution? the constitution would be nothing more than a piece of paper if people weren't willing to fight to protect it.

And it would be nothing more than a piece of paper if the protesters in NYC weren't allowed to speak their piece.

 

[meegannie]

I agree too. Though I do pray for the safety of the troops, I do not support them.

That's exactly how I feel.

And I agree with Martha. I'm completely against violent protest, but I'm glad that people are still exercising their right to protest this war.

 

[The Absent One]

The troops signed up for the army in the knowledge that they may have to kill people in their job. If i dont agree with the concept of war (especially wars of agression) how can i support those who make it possible and actively take part/ promote war?

I do not understand people who tell me to support these troops. They are not protecting me in Iraq!!!

Also, i protest because protesting is a right of people in a democracy. We are in a democracy and we must therefore use this right If we dont use it then what is the point in being in a democracy?
How can those who are most in favour of our democracy's at the same time criticise people for making use of our freedom? Its hypocritical and ignorant.

Finally, just because i am against this war doesnt mean that i dont recognise and dispise the human rights violations that go on in Iraq AND GUATANAMO BAY. We cannot forget that Iraq is not alone in committing human rights violations. If we hated Saddam Hussein and knew his actions 12 years ago, why didnt we liberate the Iraqi people then?
(because Bush snr wanted a quick short war as an election winning action - thats why)
Lets not kid ourselves that this war is about human rights.

I'll shut up now!!!

 

[U2girl]

Screaming Flower: what is your opinion on things like Patriot act, then? Or how certain rights were quickly weakened since 911 in US?
BTW, what does Iraq war have to do with your constitutional rights anyway?

ps: not a single US soldier thought for my freedom. In WW II our very own Partisan army liberated Slovenia, and (in my lifetime) in 1991 our very own Territorial defense (basically an army, only with a different name) succesfully defended us from Yugoslav army. (after US, among many other states, condemned any unilateral action on our part - meaning our indepence declared!)

 

[U2luv]

Screaming Flower: what is your opinion on things like Patriot act, then? Or how certain rights were quickly weakened since 911 in US?
BTW, what does Iraq war have to do with your constitutional rights anyway?

The Patriot Act should never have been. You are correct that it weakens the Constitution and just as importantly, a major part of the Constitution called the Bill of Rights. Big mistake to allow that through. Bigger mistake if the rumors are true that there is a so called "enhancement" of the Patriot Act and they allow that through.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: IMO, Anti-war protestors should keep quiet..

Isn't this self-contradictory? If you don't agree with what they're doing, how can you support them?

No, it's not contradictory at all. You don't have to be for war to support the troops. "Supporting the troops" could be as simple as praying for them. People who are out there spitting on cops and causing traffic jams on the streets and highways are despicable. I'm sorry to have to say that but it's true. If you were having a heart attack and an ambulance needed to get through but were delayed because the road to your house was blocked, you'd be in bad shape. But of course, they don't think about that. To many of them, it's all about doing the "cool" thing, and the "cool" thing right now is to protest.

"Hey Bob", says Sue, "Wanna cut Economics today and go protest?"

"What are we protesting?"

"The War, silly".

"Okay, that's cool. It beats going to class. Plus, it will really tick off my Republican mom."

 

[U2girl]

Well when you put it that way, I think I understand what you mean. I guess we all agree anti-war people are just as eager to see troops return safely as the pro-war people.

I agree it's a shame peace protesters do things like that, instead of peacefully voicing their protest. And I guess there will always be those who think it's just "cool" to be there. (from what I understand, all kinds of generations are represented - from youth to old people)
Having said that, I don't think ALL of them should be blamed for it.

 

[jesseu2]

Re: Re: IMO, Anti-war protestors should keep quiet..

How do you know they don't support the troops, did you ask them? I bet the majority of them do support our troops and want them HOME where they belong.

ok, i agree with what you said... i do know they support in their hearts somewhere but i meant to say that i think these people should stop protesting the war less, switch gears, an focus more on supporting our troops more in the open.

seems like they go out of hand with the anti-war part but forget to mention our troops in the open, sometimes. especially with that flag burning incident in oregon 2 days ago, i think.

 

[U2luv]

Re: Re: Re: IMO, Anti-war protestors should keep quiet..

ok, i agree with what you said... i do know they support in their hearts somewhere but i meant to say that i think these people should stop protesting the war less, switch gears, an focus more on supporting our troops more in the open.

seems like they go out of hand with the anti-war part but forget to mention our troops in the open, sometimes. especially with that flag burning incident in oregon 2 days ago, i think.

I agree, what happened in Oregon and other places was very wrong. I feel that that is a relatively few people doing that, and that most protesters do support the troops. I agree that they should SHOW that though.

 

[Scarletwine]

I think the saying "support our troops" is wrong, As a protestor I pray for the safety of the men and women in combat. I think that is what most people think that saying means.
But I do not support their actions or the actions of my government in the manner they are going about the removal of Sadaam. That is regardless of the wish for the people of Iraq to be free of him.
Rummys thoughts that they would lay down their arms and kiss us has been dispelled in the last 24 hrs. After all we are invading their country. He may be a bastard but he is an Iraqi,

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft are the real anit-Americans.

By the way we've killed more of our own than they have.

 

[speedracer]

It is a good sign that both ( anti and pro war ) sides can go out on the streets to make their point.

But I don't think it's wise for the anti-war crowd to register its protest at this time. The right time is when they actually have a chance of stopping the war. That is, when masses of Iraqi civilians and/or coalition forces start dying, God forbid.

 

[deep in HELL]

I think the protest and world opinion are preventing the Pentagon from pulling out all the stops
and leveling Bahgdad.

 

[The Absent One]

And more to the point, you've killed more British too!!!

But well said Scarletwine. I do not want any troops to die. I dont pray, but i hope this war is a bloodless on all sides as possible.

Saddam Hussein is a complete bastard but the way the co-alition is going about this is completely wrong and will lead to MANY more problems than it will solve.
I protest becaue I believe in a better world. I have to fight each battle on its own. And how can people say that once war has started its worthless to protest? Protest ended Vietnam did it not?

 

[80sU2isBest]

I think the protest and world opinion are preventing the Pentagon from pulling out all the stops
and leveling Bahgdad.

I disagree. I don't think the protests are preventing diddly squat.

Bush has said from the very beginning that what he wants to do is take out the saddam regime, not kill civilians. The "shock and awe" (ie: precision point bombing) was designed to do just that - destroy as many military targets and kill as many Saddam leaders as possible.

 

[Scarletwine]

And more to the point, you've killed more British too!!!

But well said Scarletwine. I do not want any troops to die. I dont pray, but i hope this war is a bloodless on all sides as possible.

Saddam Hussein is a complete bastard but the way the co-alition is going about this is completely wrong and will lead to MANY more problems than it will solve.
I protest becaue I believe in a better world. I have to fight each battle on its own. And how can people say that once war has started its worthless to protest? Protest ended Vietnam did it not?

I was including the UK soldiers as part of the coalition. Actually more UK have died than US and their numbers are much fewer.

Now it was just reported that the coalition killed an independant journalist. I'll bet he has a camera on him and might project the wrong IMAGES.

I am also sorry for ALL the deaths.

 

[Dreadsox]

I'll bet he has a camera on him and might project the wrong IMAGES.

Scarletwine,

I know you care deeply about this issue. I know you care for the safety of our soldiers and for innocent victems in the war.

I do however have to express how offesive your comment above is. If you do however have some type of proof that US Soldiers are killing reporters that are photgraphing things and are being killed because of what they have photographed, I will gladly join you in your outrage. However your comment above, without such proof is a pretty God Awful charge to level against the men and women serving our country.

Thanks,

Matt

 

[speedracer]

And how can people say that once war has started its worthless to protest? Protest ended Vietnam did it not?

I don't know if you're referring to me, but I said that the time to protest is when it is evident that the war is a failure, i.e. when there are reports of massive Iraqi civilian casualties and/or coalition casualties. (Why should we take a chance on war when the possibility of failure is real? Because the risk strikes me as not-very-large. Saddam tortures and terrorizes his civilians daily. We'd have to carpet-bomb Iraq indiscriminately for months to match the damage Saddam does to his country. On the other hand, the reward is great.)

The problem with some elements of the anti-war movement is their refusal to acknowledge the possibility that the war might be a success. Here "success" means that (1) Saddam is gone, (2) not too much blood is shed, and (3) the seeds from which a democracy in Iraq can grow are planted.

In fact, some real blingwads like Chrisse Hynde (from the Pretenders) have said on record that they hope the US gets its ass kicked in this war.

 

[Scarletwine]

Scarletwine,

I know you care deeply about this issue. I know you care for the safety of our soldiers and for innocent victems in the war.

I do however have to express how offesive your comment above is. If you do however have some type of proof that US Soldiers are killing reporters that are photgraphing things and are being killed because of what they have photographed, I will gladly join you in your outrage. However your comment above, without such proof is a pretty God Awful charge to level against the men and women serving our country.

Thanks,

Matt

I do care deeply about this issue and I also know how the carnage inflicted on Iraqi's, including soldiers was hushed up in Desert Storm. If it wasn't for independant journalist we wouldn't have know about the death's of retreating Iraqi soldiers. Have you not seen the pictures of the plows and dead bodies on the front of our tanks. Soldiers saying we buried Iraqi's in trenches alive?

However you are right about my having no proof about us targeting the reporter. I'm sure it was an accident but I do have historical porof of Rumsfeld's dislike of media and how dangerous he thinks they can be to the current motives. I think that's why he imbedded them ( in bed, meaning attachments, lack of neutrality) and they have warned against rogur journalist (but we are now an official rogue nation).

It's weird but in a way this issue has polarized me more than any in my life. I hope I can follow my heart as far as it leads me.

 

[deep]

In fact, some real blingwads like Chrisse Hynde (from the Pretenders) have said on record that they hope the US gets its ass kicked in this war.

do you have a sorce for this,
besides someone like Limbaugh,
I know she made some remarks at a club date as the intro to her song "loser".

 

[Dreadsox]

I do care deeply about this issue and I also know how the carnage inflicted on Iraqi's, including soldiers was hushed up in Desert Storm. If it wasn't for independant journalist we wouldn't have know about the death's of retreating Iraqi soldiers. Have you not seen the pictures of the plows and dead bodies on the front of our tanks. Soldiers saying we buried Iraqi's in trenches alive?

I disagree comletely with your interpretation of the facts. Amazing it was so covered up that FRONTLINE did a whole documentary on this years ago.

I am guessing you are referring to the HIGHWAY of DEATH and the paths we plowed though their trenches to allow our vehicles to pass through their lines. There have been threads already here discussing them both and I have taken the opposite side of you on these issues from the last war.

I am not going to derail this thread going into events from 12 years ago with you, that depending on your source and mine, can have very different interpretations.

As to Mr. Rumsfeld hating the media so what!!!! You implied that an American soldier intentionally killed an imbedded reporter becasue of photgraphs.

 

[speedracer]

do you have a sorce for this,
besides someone like Limbaugh,
I know she made some remarks at a club date as the intro to her song "loser".

Those may be the remarks I'm talking about.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/03/DD99951.DTL

-----------------
Between songs, the pugnacious Hynde, in a classic black T-shirt and jeans, bantered and battled with the crowd. She dedicated "You Know Who Your Friends Are" to "all you junkies and f--," gave a shout-out to the late Joe Strummer, opined that she hopes the United States loses if it goes to war with Iraq ("Bring it on! Give us what we deserve!"), and introduced the song "Fools Must Die" with the self-deprecating quip, "I'll show you how it's done."

<snip>
-----------------

I don't claim sentiment like this to be representative of the entire anti-war movement. But it sickens me nonetheless.

 

[Scarletwine]

Deadsox,
I didn't imply to that I hinted at it's possibilty. A rhetorical comment. A thought provoking idea.

The same way propaganda works. I also reitereated that I was sure it was an accident.

edited cause I'm trting to watch tv and type

 

[Lemonite]

Why do people think they can support the troops but not the mission. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Asking us to believe that toad of Self justification to yourselves is asinine. However, If we are to have it your way, we are to believe that in supporting the troops, you also support the Command Leadership of the troops.. Including the Commander in Chief.. Our very own leader of the free world. Don't you love how things work out sometimes?

Oh yeah.. Please now refer to these POW's as Hostages, as with the evidence of execution style killings, that is all they are now.


Mr. Pink

 

[pax]

You can support the troops without supporting the war, or war in general. I pray for the safety and healthy of our men and women in uniform. I will not call them "baby-killers" or the like when they come home. I think they are brave and selfless individuals.

But I still don't know how I feel about this war. And I support the troops so much that I would prefer that none of them die, or are tortured or wounded. I support the troops so much that I hope they can get the hell out of there and stay safe.

I am anti-war precisely because I support our troops.