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Old 09-21-2007, 09:57 AM   #46
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this does seem a good example of the logic behind hate crimes legislation.

those nooses in the tree didn't terrorize that individual student. it terrorized all black students at that school.

and we can extrapolate from there. and i still think hate crimes are inelegant, but this is what people are talking about.
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Old 09-21-2007, 10:11 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
who is disputing that anyone is not guilty of their own actions

I am just calling out the bullshit
that the actions of the Jena six are comparable to the actions of a lynch mob
It's not bullshit. Six people attacking one. I meant it in a metaphorical way not literally of course I thought you could figure that out. A lynch mob takes the law into their own hands and attacks a person they want taken care of though it's illegal and wrong. The Jena 6 took the law into their own hands and attacked a person and it was wrong. Maybe 'gang bang' would be a better term, but it's basically the same thing. They were a hateful mob who attacked, injured and could have killed one individual.

If it's okay to do this to someone who 'terrorizes' you, then I'm sure many bullied kids in schools everywhere would love to beat the shit out of their tormentors. You can't do that in a civilized society, and if you do, you downgrade yourself to below the bully.

The biggest 'bullshit' here is defending these hoodlums as victims in need of support. They committed a criminal act and deserve to be treated as criminals. If others black or white have committed other acts they have not been charged with they too should be charged and punished, including the noose hangers. But letting these guys go free is a bad message, and will likely only set a precedent for many others in the future to claim to be a 'victim'.

Another thing, if being fed up with the bad treatment is a justification for their crimes, might as well excuse all kids who commit school shootings too.
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Old 09-21-2007, 10:13 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico


How come you aren't throwing a fit for the black student that was beaten up for going to an all-white party? Don't you think those kids should've been charged? Doesn't it bother you at all that not a single white person has been charged in any of these series of events? And a 3-day suspension doesn't even come close.

I didn't know about that. Yes those white kids should be charged. But that doesn't mean the Jena 6 should be set free. No thug, white or black should get away with their crime. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Old 09-21-2007, 10:52 AM   #49
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The probelms here, Butterscotch, are two fold:

1) The Jena 6 are being tried for a much higher crime than they deserve. I don't think anyone is saying that they did no wrong, just that they didn't do as much wrong as they are being tried on (by all-white, racist juries).

2) The Jena 6 as black students have faced unequal treatment compared to white students who committed similar crimes.
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:09 PM   #50
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^ exactly. No one is saying the Jena six should be let out of jail and patted on the back - its just showing the inequlity of the "justice" system. If its for JUSTICE then why one rule for one and another for others.

Sure its digusting 6 kids beat up one kid. They should be charged with assualt, regardless of what he said or nooses in the tree. The nooses should definately have been dealt with harsher (i was no aware of total significance, so i change my early thoughts) if they are hate crimes they should be dealt like that. Unfortunately i think a lot of hate crimes are still no seen that way by a lot of people in power (race, sex, sexuality) and therefore never responded too as much as they should.
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:51 PM   #51
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As a matter of PR savvy, I do find it unfortunate that many of the protesters chose to use the slogan "Free the Jena 6." "Equal Justice for the Jena 6" would have been much better. It's simply a given that when you use language like the former, many people are going to misread it as a point-specific commentary on the 'Jena 6 incident' itself, to the effect of "Oh whatever, they did nothing wrong, therefore there shouldn't be any consequences."

Of course, in reality, that's not why this case became a cause célèbre. Had there been no relevant preceding context for the incident (e.g. the nooses, the 'stroke of a pen' threat, the gun-pulling incident), and had the charges actually fit the the crime (e.g. misdemeanor battery with a probation-only sentence, such as the white boy who beat Jena 6 defendant Robert Bailey got), no one would be making a big deal out of this. In that context, "Free the Jena 6" is in fact synonymous with "Equal Justice for the Jena 6," because none of the white people involved got legal consequences beyond (in one case) probation for any of those things, whereas the Jena 6 each first faced up to 80 years in prison, and now up to 22.5, on felony charges.

I suppose that above and beyond that, there are also many people who simply find it excessive to press charges over a high-school beating whose worst consequence was a mild concussion. While I personally find that "argument" irrelevant (because anyone to whom something like that happens is well within their rights to press charges, like it or not), it is true that incidents of that magnitude happen all the time in schools without charges being pressed over them. Again, I don't think that's relevant per se, but I do tend to suspect that many people read the details of the beating, recalled similar incidents they saw in their own high school days where no charges were pressed, did a double take at the harshness of the sentences, and thought "What the hell?!?" Actually, one of my brothers got a concussion from an entirely unprovoked fight back in high school (he looked a lot worse than Justin Barker did in that photo, too) and my family never pressed charges or even considered it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
I meant it in a metaphorical way not literally of course I thought you could figure that out. A lynch mob takes the law into their own hands and attacks a person they want taken care of though it's illegal and wrong. The Jena 6 took the law into their own hands and attacked a person and it was wrong.
.............................................
Another thing, if being fed up with the bad treatment is a justification for their crimes, might as well excuse all kids who commit school shootings too.
It's just common sense that there are some things you don't freely and loosely make metaphors of. If a woman slaps a man on the cheek over an argument and shouts, "You fucking pig! Just like a man!" would you say that she degraded herself to the level of a serial rapist-murderer? Because after all, both involve violence against a person that implies contempt for their gender in general.

And I don't at all see how the Jena 6 took "the law" into their own hands. Justin Barker had done nothing illegal, he had nothing to do with hanging the nooses, nor did any of the Jena 6 believe he did. Rather, Jena 6 defendant Robert Bailey was angry at Barker for loudly gloating in school about Bailey getting jumped and beaten by a white boy after being denied entry to a white student party the weekend before (this was the aforementioned white boy who received misdemeanor battery charges and a probation-only sentence for the beating). I have not seen anyone, here or elsewhere, argue that that "justified" beating Justin Barker.
Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
I didn't know about that. Yes those white kids should be charged.
How could you not know about it? That, and various other instances of unequal justice in this case, have already been repeatedly cited in this thread, not to mention countless news accounts of the whole affair. Again, this gives the impression that you are too busy focusing on the one tree to notice the forest. Whether or not the Jena 6 did something wrong is not what all the anger out there is about.
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:01 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch


It's not bullshit. Six people attacking one. I meant it in a metaphorical way not literally of course I thought you could figure that out. A lynch mob takes the law into their own hands and attacks a person they want taken care of though it's illegal and wrong. The Jena 6 took the law into their own hands and attacked a person and it was wrong. Maybe 'gang bang' would be a better term, but it's basically the same thing. They were a hateful mob who attacked, injured and could have killed one individual.
Maybe you all went to really nice high schools, but this fight isn't THAT uncommon in high school. Yes it was severe, but having multiple kids beat up someone isn't uncommon. When I was in high school 4 guys beat up this kid sending him to the hospital because he apparently called girl a 'cunt' for not sleeping with him, they got sent to alternative school. No criminal charges. Would they still get the lych mob title from you?

Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch

If it's okay to do this to someone who 'terrorizes' you, then I'm sure many bullied kids in schools everywhere would love to beat the shit out of their tormentors. You can't do that in a civilized society, and if you do, you downgrade yourself to below the bully.
Who here has said it's 'OK'? This is just as weak as those death penalty discussions where some idiot comes in and assumes that someone who doesn't believe in the DP wants all murderers set free.

Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch

The biggest 'bullshit' here is defending these hoodlums as victims in need of support. They committed a criminal act and deserve to be treated as criminals. If others black or white have committed other acts they have not been charged with they too should be charged and punished, including the noose hangers. But letting these guys go free is a bad message, and will likely only set a precedent for many others in the future to claim to be a 'victim'.
Once again you are failing to see the real issue here.


Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch

Another thing, if being fed up with the bad treatment is a justification for their crimes, might as well excuse all kids who commit school shootings too.
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:04 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


Again, this gives the impression that you are too busy focusing on the one tree to notice the forest. Whether or not the Jena 6 did something wrong is not what all the anger out there is about.
EXACTLY!!!
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:57 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
It's not bullshit. Six people attacking one. I meant it in a metaphorical way not literally of course I thought you could figure that out. A lynch mob takes the law into their own hands and attacks a person they want taken care of though it's illegal and wrong. The Jena 6 took the law into their own hands and attacked a person and it was wrong. Maybe 'gang bang' would be a better term, but it's basically the same thing. They were a hateful mob who attacked, injured and could have killed one individual.

If it's okay to do this to someone who 'terrorizes' you, then I'm sure many bullied kids in schools everywhere would love to beat the shit out of their tormentors. You can't do that in a civilized society, and if you do, you downgrade yourself to below the bully.

The biggest 'bullshit' here is defending these hoodlums as victims in need of support. They committed a criminal act and deserve to be treated as criminals. If others black or white have committed other acts they have not been charged with they too should be charged and punished, including the noose hangers. But letting these guys go free is a bad message, and will likely only set a precedent for many others in the future to claim to be a 'victim'.

Another thing, if being fed up with the bad treatment is a justification for their crimes, might as well excuse all kids who commit school shootings too.
You don't understand what the anger is even about, do you?
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:48 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


You don't understand what the anger is even about, do you?
Oh please come on. I've been saying all along, it doesn't matter WHAT anyone did, you DO NOT attack and beat a guy the way those six did. A lot of people have been angry over a lot of things, even personal things used against them, but the bottom line is six guys jumped one guy and that's every bit as wrong as the 5 cops beating Rodney King.

I agree with Yolland that the message should not be "Free the Jena 6" but JUSTICE for ALL, and that means leaving them in jail where they belong, and bringing additional charges against any white kids who did something too. I just read a story about two boys in a truck dragging nooses behind it antagonizing the marchers getting back on their buses. They've been arrested and rightly so.
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Old 09-21-2007, 08:36 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch


Oh please come on. I've been saying all along, it doesn't matter WHAT anyone did, you DO NOT attack and beat a guy the way those six did. A lot of people have been angry over a lot of things, even personal things used against them, but the bottom line is six guys jumped one guy and that's every bit as wrong as the 5 cops beating Rodney King.
You still don't get it. No one is saying these kids are justified, no one is saying that beating the kid isn't wrong. Did the cops get attempted murder charges?

Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch

I agree with Yolland that the message should not be "Free the Jena 6" but JUSTICE for ALL, and that means leaving them in jail where they belong, and bringing additional charges against any white kids who did something too. I just read a story about two boys in a truck dragging nooses behind it antagonizing the marchers getting back on their buses. They've been arrested and rightly so.
I would say alternative school and community service would be a better sentence then jail, but that's just me.
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Old 09-22-2007, 12:31 AM   #57
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From a new Yahoo news story:

Defense lawyers have complained that Mauffray set a high bail for Bell — $90,000 — prior to his conviction in the Barker beating. Mauffray had cited Bell's criminal record, which included juvenile arrests for battery and damage to property, in setting the bail.

See the kid had a record. He's no innocent victim being framed. The law takes this into consideration and I'm sure that has a lot to with why their charges are so much worse than some kid, black or white, who had no record. there is a lot we don't know about this case, it's not as 'black and white' as it may look.
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Old 09-22-2007, 12:33 AM   #58
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Originally posted by Butterscotch
Oh please come on. I've been saying all along, it doesn't matter WHAT anyone did, you DO NOT attack and beat a guy the way those six did. A lot of people have been angry over a lot of things, even personal things used against them, but the bottom line is six guys jumped one guy and that's every bit as wrong as the 5 cops beating Rodney King.

I agree with Yolland that the message should not be "Free the Jena 6" but JUSTICE for ALL, and that means leaving them in jail where they belong, and bringing additional charges against any white kids who did something too. I just read a story about two boys in a truck dragging nooses behind it antagonizing the marchers getting back on their buses. They've been arrested and rightly so.
Yes, it's wrong, but it's not the bottom line in any way. There's much more to this story than summarizing "six guys jumped one guy" and leaving it at that.

It's not justice to have them in jail for this long for a school fight. I agree they deserve punishment, but not excessively unfair punishment, which is what you have here. And more importantly, an uneven lack of punishment for the others involved.

Leaving them in jail plainly and simply is not justice.
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Old 09-22-2007, 12:41 AM   #59
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Quote:
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See the kid had a record. He's no innocent victim being framed.
Wow, you really just don't get it...

How many here have said "he's innocent and being framed"?
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:08 AM   #60
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ALEXANDRIA, Louisiana (CNN) -- A Louisiana city that hosted many of the "Jena 6" protesters Thursday became the site of a racially charged incident of its own.

Authorities in Alexandria, less than 40 miles southwest of Jena, arrested two people who were driving a red pickup Thursday night with two nooses hanging off the back, repeatedly passing groups of demonstrators who were waiting for buses back to their home states.

The marchers had taken part in the huge protests in Jena that accused authorities there of injustice in the handling of racially charged cases -- including the hanging of nooses in a tree after a group of black students sat in an area where traditionally only white students sat.

The driver of the red truck, whom Alexandria police identified as Jeremiah Munsen, 18, was charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor -- a reference to the 16-year-old passenger. Munsen also was charged with driving while intoxicated and inciting to riot, according to the police report.

As officials were questioning the driver, he said he had an unloaded rifle in the back of the truck, which police found. They also found a set of brass knuckles in a cup holder on the dashboard, the police report said.

The passenger told police he and his family are in the Ku Klux Klan and that he had KKK tattooed on his chest, the police report said. He also said that he tied the nooses and that the brass knuckles belonged to him, the report said.

The report, filed by Officer F.R. Drewett, said he and another officer were standing with protesters awaiting their bus back to Nashville, Tennessee, when one of the group told him about a truck driving with nooses hanging off the back.

The truck was circling around town, repeatedly driving past groups of demonstrators, the report said. The officers pulled the pickup over and arrested two after searching the vehicle.

At least one of the nooses was made out of an extension cord, according to the police report.

The driver and passenger are white, according to the police report.

An entry in the report lists "Bias Motive: Racial Anti-Black."

Alexandria Mayor Jacques Roy said those involved were "from around Jena" and not from the same parish as his city.

Roy said he is looking into whether the incident was a hate crime.

A photograph of the truck was sent to CNN by I-Reporter Casanova Love, 26, who said he is in the U.S. military. He's visiting his family in Louisiana and said he witnessed the event.

After the arrests, Roy came out to address the crowd and apologized, saying he does not condone racism, Love said.

Love added, "If the police had not stepped in, I fear what might have happened."

Love explained why he sent the photo to CNN: "People need to see this. It's 2007, and we still have fools acting like it's 1960."

Roy said the matter is "not indicative" of Alexandria and that local authorities will look into it "completely, thoroughly and transparently."

Some protesters saw another truck with a noose hanging off it, but authorities did not find the vehicle, according to the police report.

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