MERGED--> all Israel/Lebanon conflict discussion, Pt. II - Page 8 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-02-2006, 05:12 AM   #106
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 09:53 AM
Unable and now unwilling, unfortunately.
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 06:50 AM   #107
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
So, Yolland, what's your take on the Lebanese government? Are they unwilling to deal with Hezbollah themselves? Or they willing but unable? Because if they've chosen to look the other way with Hezbollah, I could certainly understand Israel's decision to take on Lebanon as a whole. Would you say the relationship between the Lebanese gov and Hezbollah is analogous to the relationship between say the Taliban and Al-Quaeda? Because if so my scenario would not have worked.
I think comparing them to the Taliban would be way overstating it--the Taliban was far more intimately and extensively tied to al-Qaeda than, so far as I can tell, the Lebanese government is to Hezbollah. My reasons for skepticism about your scenario have more to do with your fourth sentence above, and essentially amount to two points:

--I'm not sure there is a coherent "they" to which to ascribe opinions where the Lebanese government is concerned. The Lebanese Civil War is over (and will hopefully never resume), but the state remains deeply factionalized, and many factions--not just the Shiites--still retain active and well-armed militias, which in part explains the weakness of the Lebanese army: "we Lebanese" is just not an idea with deep roots yet, especially militarily. I certainly don't think the Lebanese army has either the unity or the werewithal to rout Hezbollah on its own. Frankly, I would feel pretty comfortable describing Lebanon as essentially a failed state--perhaps not a terminally failed one, but one too fractured and weak to resist outside manipulation, and to speak as one voice when it comes to bilateral negotiations.

--At this point I do indeed think there's a high level of resistance to disarming Hezbollah for the sake of peace with Israel within the Lebanese government, and not just among Hezbollah MPs. I must admit my perceptions on this matter are still in flux: I really knew very little about Resolution 1559 and the Lebanese government's prior responses to the UN concerning it until all this broke out. Only by reading materials given to me by colleagues specializing in the region (and of varying stances on the present conflict) do I know anything about those responses, and I was taken aback by the--as I said in the post you quoted--"Nyah nyah" tone of many of them.

It's hard for me to know precisely what to make of this, because for one thing, Lebanon was still occupied by Syria at the time 1559 was passed. On the other hand, they seem to have pretty much blown off the UN's late 2005 and early 2006 reiterations as well, and that's post-Syrian-occupation obviously. I wish I could say I considered my knowledge adequate to assess whether this more reflects bad faith or bad efficacy, but I can't. PM Siniora's statements on Hezbollah's long-term legitimacy (as a militia) have been totally contradictory, declaring at one moment that Hezbollah is a necessary "resistance movement against the Israeli enemy" and valued supplement to the weak state army deserving of protection and preservation, and then at another that Hezbollah must be disarmed and that the only prerequisite to that is Israel's withdrawal from Shebaa Farms, which Lebanon alone claims as their territory. (It was originally part of Syria, but they ceded it to Israel following the 1967 Six Day War ceasefire; Lebanon never claimed Shebaa before 2000, however, while Syria for its part officially continues to decline comment either way.)

It may not be the best sign that Siniora's "Cedar Revolution" government is the first ever to have granted Hezbollah political status; on the other hand, you could also interpret that as a pragmatic concession to Lebanese Shiites. And Siniora is certainly not the only Lebanese political actor to endorse Hezbollah's continued military presence: the main Druze party (parliament's second-largest bloc, 16 out of 128 seats) has consistently done so as well, as have the Harakat Amal and Syrian Social Nationalist parties (17 seats altogether). (Hezbollah has 14 seats.) Plus, virtually all the more powerful parties represent groups which maintain militias of their own, making them reluctant to establish a precedent of denying militias a right to exist. However, that's not to say that many of them don't also deeply resent the proxy nature of Hezbollah's military wing at the same time.

Regardless, I think Israel's current strategy is only likely to increase both internal and external support for Hezbollah, as well as the tendency to deflect dissent over Hezbollah's military legitimacy onto the Shebaa Farms issue. Obviously any UN peace plan will need to address Shebaa, and Israel has indicated willingness in principle to withdraw from it, provided that UN forces follow through on routing Hezbollah and ensuring their disarmament. I also think--at least I hope--that the UN would take more care than Israel has to ensure that civilians (temporarily) clear out first. Penalizing Lebanese civilians with mass death for the weakness and/or terminal factionalization of their government, and indeed their country, is IMO simply not justified by the extent of the threat to Israel currently posed by Hezbollah, alarming though the speed of their buildup has been.

Of course, there is also the risk that Hezbollah itself could temporarily decamp to somewhere beyond the mandate's reach, thus threatening to restart the cycle. I have no idea at all what to suggest should that happen. But hopefully it wouldn't.
__________________

__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 08:25 AM   #108
New Yorker
 
Sherry Darling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,857
Local Time: 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


Thats a question you should ask those who keep attacking them for no legitimate reason. My point has been Israel has done what it needs to do to survive and thrive in the middle of a region that has been trying to destroy it for 58 years. Yet, Israel has one of the highest standards of living in the world. They are democracy. They have achieved their dream and will continue to defend it when they are attacked.

When was the last time any Arab country or Arab terrorist organization was able to put a dent in or stop, Israel's progress as a prosperous nation? Look at what Israel has achieved as country for the past 58 years. What have the Palestinians terror groups and Hezbollah achieved? What has Lebanon and Syria achieved?

The world still has to fight terrorism and crime, and will probably have to on some level for an indefinite time. Israel success and effectivness has been their ability to survive and thrive against the unbelievable odds against them. To suggest that because they have not ended global terrorism or the need to defend themselves, that their policies have been ineffective is simply absurd.
I have to say, Sting, I was hoping you might at least attempt to answer my question, rather than sidestep it. Ah well.

I'd love to hear the thoughts of any others on the same question, if anyone wants to take a stab.
__________________
Sherry Darling is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 08:30 AM   #109
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,295
Local Time: 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling


Here's a thought: if Israel has been fighting terror so long, as you say, yet so effectively, as you say....why are they still having to fight?

Well STING can't answer your question because while for you "effectively" is a false premise, it isn't for him.

IMO, it's because they haven't been fighting terror at all, but terror groups. They think it's like fighting a military, and even if they push back Hezbollah, so what? Islamic terrorists in the Middle East are a dime a dozen, they gather, regroup, expand so long as they have safe haven within countries whose governments passively support them and whose populations actively support them. So, it's lather, rinse, repeat.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 09:03 AM   #110
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Here's a thought: if Israel has been fighting terror so long, as you say, yet so effectively, as you say....why are they still having to fight?
Because the rest of the world community has done little to qwell the agenda of neighboring countries to push Israel into the sea.

UN resolutions may placate those in ivory towers, but sending memo writing forces as "peacekeepers" allow these agendas to flourish.

Considering what Israel faces day to day, and the robust society they have built surrounded by enemies, there is a large degree of effectiveness to what they are doing.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 10:25 AM   #111
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,496
Local Time: 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Because the rest of the world community has done little to qwell the agenda of neighboring countries to push Israel into the sea.

UN resolutions may placate those in ivory towers, but sending memo writing forces as "peacekeepers" allow these agendas to flourish.

Considering what Israel faces day to day, and the robust society they have built surrounded by enemies, there is a large degree of effectiveness to what they are doing.


can you name another political/military "situation" (for lack of a better catch-all phrase) that gets more international attention, not to mention the personal attentiveness of the US and UK governments, than the Middle East and specifically the Israel/Palestinian (and, by extention, Israel's neighbors) conflict?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 11:33 AM   #112
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling


Here's a thought: if Israel has been fighting terror so long, as you say, yet so effectively, as you say....why are they still having to fight?

Because of the resources of their enemies, I would say. The Wahhibists of Saudi Arabia are still funding their little hate schools in the Arabic countries. And the Arabic countries aren't exactly going anywhere. They're not going to change their stripes. No matter how well Israel does, its neighbors aren't going anywhere, and they'll continue to consider Israel occupied territory that they have to take back for the Palestinians.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 12:43 PM   #113
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:53 PM
Considering the funding going to terrorist groups and methodology, I wonder how much life would be different for Palestinians if that same money went to their needs and development.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 01:02 PM   #114
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,496
Local Time: 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Considering the funding going to terrorist groups and methodology, I wonder how much life would be different for Palestinians if that same money went to their needs and development.


agreed. if there's a group of people on earth to pity, it's the Palestinians, as their lives are little more than political fodder for the continued extention of power and control of unspeakable oft-US-supported dictatorships.

well publicized Palestinian misery is in the best interests of the Syrian, Iranian, Jordanian, Saudi Arabian, etc., governments, not to mention Hezbollah.

the US and Isreal continue to play into their hands.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 01:26 PM   #115
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Considering the funding going to terrorist groups and methodology, I wonder how much life would be different for Palestinians if that same money went to their needs and development.
The terrorist groups are an extension of Wahhabism and the school of Deobandi Islam based in India, which has spread to Pakistan and given birth to the Taliban. There's no telling how many powerful people have a vested interest in keeping these schools going.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 01:48 PM   #116
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:53 PM
I think critics of Israel keep playing into the hands of those who use Palestinians as political fodder.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 01:50 PM   #117
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling


I have to say, Sting, I was hoping you might at least attempt to answer my question, rather than sidestep it. Ah well.

I'd love to hear the thoughts of any others on the same question, if anyone wants to take a stab.
The premise of your question is absurd. Your essentialy saying that Israeli policy has not been effective because they have not ended global terrorism or the need to defend themselves. Has any country in the world ever completely ended terrorism,crime, or the need to defend themselves for that matter? Is the United States a failure because it has had to maintain a military force of some size for the past 231 years?

At a minimum, I think you should try and understand what the Israeli people have accomplished over the past 58 years. It is incredible and I'm sure other Israeli posters on here would agree that their policies have not been ineffective as you seem to attempt to suggest.

If you feel that Israel has really had ineffective policies for the past 58 years, lets here would you would have done in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982 as well as the smaller conflicts in between and the current conflict. Its always easy to criticize, but what would you do yourself if you were the Prime Minister of Israel at any of these points over the past 58 years?
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 01:56 PM   #118
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,496
Local Time: 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I think critics of Israel keep playing into the hands of those who use Palestinians as political fodder.


how?

what do the Isrealis or Americans do to alleviate Palestinian suffering thus reducing political ammunition of various Arab dictatorships?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 01:59 PM   #119
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
trevster2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,330
Local Time: 08:23 PM
I think people who abhor criticism are fools.
__________________
trevster2k is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 02:03 PM   #120
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,496
Local Time: 06:53 PM
[q]Wars are more easily begun than won. It's not only Iraq that illustrates this; just look at Afghanistan, where the Taliban fights on. But the Bush administration, having apparently learned skepticism of military options since the Iraq imbroglio, veered back toward credulity when it came to Lebanon.

It is hard to see how Israeli troops can succeed in uprooting Hezbollah. Assume that the war begins to go better for them, and that they fight village by village until they destroy the militia infrastructure. But what comes after that? The Israelis will leave, allowing the pro-Hezbollah Shiite population to reclaim their land -- and opening the way for Iran and Syria to resupply military cells with cash and weapons. This prospect logically leads some analysts to advocate action against Syria and Iran. But what action? There's no international support for serious sanctions. And not even the Bush administration is talking about military strikes on Damascus or Tehran.

Just as in Iraq, the United States is supporting a war that is defensible in concept. Yes, it was Hezbollah that provoked this fight. Yes, destroying this militant state-within-a-state would be a boon not just for Israeli security but for Lebanese democracy. And yes, the diplomatic options for dealing with Hezbollah promise no quick progress. But Iraq surely teaches that wars must be more than defensible in concept. Wars are only defensible if they can be won.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...073000545.html

[/q]
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com