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Old 08-01-2006, 02:32 AM   #76
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if you look at the ratio of civilian (women and children ) killed by Israel

and the ratio of civilians killed by Hezbollah

Israel is the greater killer of innocent non-combatants
Fifty-one Israelis have died, including 33 soldiers and 18 civilians who died in rocket attacks.

40% non -combatants
60% Israeli soldiers



what do you think the numbers are for the Lebanese killed by Israel?
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Old 08-01-2006, 03:17 AM   #77
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Nebraska's Sen. Hagel calls for immediate cease-fire

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Urging President Bush to turn all U.S. efforts toward "ending this madness," a leading Republican senator Monday broke with the Bush administration and called for an immediate cease-fire in the Mideast.

"The sickening slaughter on both sides must end and it must end now," Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel said. "President Bush must call for an immediate cease-fire. This madness must stop."

The Bush administration has refused to call for Israel to halt its attacks on southern Lebanon, joining Israel in insisting that Hezbollah fighters must be pushed back from the Israeli-Lebanese border.

President Bush Monday in a speech in Miami Beach, Florida, reiterated his call for a cease-fire in the Mideast only if it brought a "long-lasting peace" that addressed Iran and Syria's support for Hezbollah, the Islamic militia that Israel is targeting. (Full story)

Hagel said that refusal threatens to isolate the United States and Israel and harm chances of achieving a long-term peace in the region.

"How do we realistically believe that a continuation of the systematic destruction of an American fter a fund-raising trip to Florida, and the White House had no immediate reaction to Hagel's comments.

Like his frequent ally, Sen. John McCain of Arizona, Hagel is a possible GOP presidential candidate in 2008 and has been critical of the administration's handling of Iraq. But few members of Congress have broken ranks with the president over his handling of the Israel-Hezbollah conflict.

Calls for an end to the 20-day conflict have increased since Israel's bombing Sunday of the Lebanese town of Qana, which left at least 54 civilians dead. Hagel said the Israeli campaign was "tearing Lebanon apart," and the resulting civilian casualties and economic damage were weakening the country and bolstering support for Hezbollah, which the U.S. State Department considers a terrorist organization.

Hagel urged the administration to revive the Beirut Declaration of 2002, authored by Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah, under which Arab countries would have recognized Israel's right to exist. Hagel said that declaration was "a starting point" toward a regional settlement, but the United States "squandered" it.
'Bogged down' in Iraq?

Meanwhile, the decorated Vietnam veteran said the United States "is bogged down in Iraq," limiting U.S. diplomatic and military options. Last week's announcement that more than 3,000 more American troops were needed to reinforce Baghdad amid rising sectarian violence was "a dramatic setback," he said.

He said the 3-year-old war is wearing badly on the U.S. military, and that Iraq's fledgling democracy needs to take over more of its security responsibilities from American troops.

"This is not about setting a timeline," Hagel said. "This is about understanding the implications of the forces of reality."
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Old 08-01-2006, 05:13 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Fifty-one Israelis have died, including 33 soldiers and 18 civilians who died in rocket attacks.

40% non -combatants
60% Israeli soldiers



what do you think the numbers are for the Lebanese killed by Israel?
Some points

- Hezbollah operate from civilians areas.
- Hezbollan targets anyone they can
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:35 AM   #79
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At least now Condoleezza Rice's incompetence is front and centre and should do nicely to squash any presidential hopes. The woman has done an astoundingly poor job, she's been a complete embarrassment over there.
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:48 AM   #80
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What did you expect her to do? No international force will be able to route out Hezbollah in the South, it was tried after the 2000 withdrawl by the Israelis and the UN force failed completely - the only hope for a semblence of peace is for Hezbollah to be unable to reach Israel with it's rockets by driving them back and then getting an international force to stop Hezbollah from regaining such a strong foothold in the south.

Israel can never and will not win the PR campaign, that is well and truly lost regardless, but if it is left with Hezbollah in control of the South then it will embolden the group, it will be considered a victory for Hezbollah and many more Lebanese and Israelis will die.
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:14 AM   #81
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She is a PR disaster herself. The day Qana is bombed, the Arab world sees nothing but photos of her shaking hands with Olmert, grinning. The day after the Rome talks essentially collapsed, the world sees a photo of her playing a piano in Malaysia, as if there isn't a care in the world. It's like the infamous photos of her shopping for Ferragamo shoes (expensive and ugly, btw) while the people of New Orleans drowned and baked in the sun.

You're right that Israel's lost the PR war, that is obvious. But Rice has lost the PR war just as much and she didn't have to do so. It's bad enough the US is seen as a one-sided policy. You mock the French for flattering Iran, but in the end they and Syria will be necessary in any talks to disarm Hezbollah, whether you like it or not and regardless of whether the Iranian president is manifestly insane. The French understand this, having had a long colonial presence and history in Lebanon and the region. Condoleezza Rice on the other hand got her ass booted out of Beirut pre-emptively. Utter disaster.
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:21 AM   #82
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Hezbollah will not be disarmed, Syria will either get control again (as a number of realists have been advocating) or punish the Lebanese and disarming Hezbollah doesn't do anything on those fronts. Iran is expanding it's sphere of influence and having an established autonomous base is adventageous, the French recognise this and will manuveur for their national interest (as any nation should) and today that seems to be resting on Iran being a regional superpower that will have a lot of influence and control over the region and the global economy.

As for intervention I think that any western power wouldn't be well placed to go in, Turkey however has influence and appropriate force to ensure that a buffer zone is maintained.
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:27 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
She is a PR disaster herself. The day Qana is bombed, the Arab world sees nothing but photos of her shaking hands with Olmert, grinning. The day after the Rome talks essentially collapsed, the world sees a photo of her playing a piano in Malaysia, as if there isn't a care in the world. It's like the infamous photos of her shopping for Ferragamo shoes (expensive and ugly, btw) while the people of New Orleans drowned and baked in the sun.

You're right that Israel's lost the PR war, that is obvious. But Rice has lost the PR war just as much and she didn't have to do so. It's bad enough the US is seen as a one-sided policy. You mock the French for flattering Iran, but in the end they and Syria will be necessary in any talks to disarm Hezbollah, whether you like it or not and regardless of whether the Iranian president is manifestly insane. The French understand this, having had a long colonial presence and history in Lebanon and the region. Condoleezza Rice on the other hand got her ass booted out of Beirut pre-emptively. Utter disaster.
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:49 PM   #84
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The Red Cross published that 28 corpses were evacuated from Qana, 19 of which were children. The report clashes with the Lebanese report that 57 people were killed.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284627,00.html
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:25 PM   #85
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"BOURJ AL-MULOUK, Lebanon - Heavy ground fighting raged Tuesday near a border village and Israel resumed frequent airstrikes after it decided, in a major expansion of its offensive, to send thousands more troops deeper into Lebanon."


"The soldiers will go as far as the Litani River, 18 miles from the Israeli border, to clear out Hezbollah fighters and hold the territory until a multinational force is deployed there, senior Israeli officials said Tuesday."

"Labor Party lawmaker Danny Yatom confirmed the Security Cabinet approved a ground offensive up to the Litani River. The goal is "to control the area, to kill as many Hezbollah terrorists as possible and to destroy as many rockets and launchers as possible, in order to minimize the capabilities of Hezbollah," Yatom, a reserve general and former chief of the Mossad spy agency, told The Associated Press."



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060801/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl





Its great to see that Israel has finally decided on the action that is necessary to provide for the security of Northern Israel by pushing Hezbollah past the Litani River and out of range of Israel for the vast majority of their rockets. It will also make border incursions into Israel very difficult if not impossible 18 miles out as opposed to the current situation.

Once Hezbollah is sufficiently weakened and pushed out of range of Israel for their rockets and other attacks, conditions will then be in place for a real ceacefire, serious negotiations, resulting hopefully in a robust multi-national ground force moving into southern Lebanon and taking over from the Israeli military. Such a force must be ready to fight at any level if Hezbollah decided to attempt to move back into the area. Over time, as Lebanon develops an finally achieves the ability to control all of its territory and Hezbollah is weakened and disarmed, then the multi-national ground force will be able to leave. Of course, things are a long way off from that ideal situation, but Israel is taking the first real positive step in that direction.
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:40 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan


Some points

- Hezbollah operate from civilians areas.
- Hezbollan targets anyone they can

will you address the fact that in this current situation that Hezbollah
is killing far less civilians than Israel?

"- Hezbollah operate from civilians areas. "

they are resistance fighters
the West (US, Britian) has supported many groups that use these tactics


"- Hezbollan targets anyone they can "
given the opportunity, they launched a rocket or drone at an Israeli gun boat
and we keep hearing this whole thing began when Israeli soldiers were attacked and captured



Israel is destroying civilian homes, businesses, and infrastructure everyday

and the whole world will regard them as the killers of women and children after this current campaign

this is largely a result of the current Israeli P M having to prove himself because he has no military past like Sharon
also the Labor leader, is a North African , Arab speaker with something to prove , also.
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:52 PM   #87
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QANA - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34189
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Old 08-01-2006, 02:42 PM   #88
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Senator Hagel
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Old 08-01-2006, 03:01 PM   #89
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As I said before this is all Lebanons fault for allowing a terrorist group run freely in it's borders, allowing them to become a political force like Hamas and then as a political force, Force lebanon into a war with Israel by kidnapping two soldiers. So who attacked first (invaded?????????????) LEBANON. So should Israel stop what it's doing and send in smaller forces to attack Hezbulla?? giving them no advantage while hezbulla continues it's rocket barrage.

Why is it that we condem israel for taking action against these cowards who fire from civilian neighbor hoods and then cry and get mad when an israeli rocket hits that area. Why not condem Hezbulla for starting this shit in the fucking first place.
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Old 08-01-2006, 04:26 PM   #90
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Israel's war separates the decent left from the indecent left
By Dennis Prager
Tuesday, July 25, 2006




I believe the Left has been wrong on virtually every great moral issue in the last 30 years.

During that period, it was wrong on the Cold War -- it devoted far more energy to fighting anti-communism than to fighting communism.

It was wrong for attacking Israel for its destruction of Saddam Hussein's nuclear reactor.

It was wrong on welfare.

It was wrong in its demanding less morally and intellectually from black Americans than from all other Americans.

It was wrong in advocating bilingual education for children of immigrants.

It was wrong in generally holding American society rather than violent criminals responsible for violent crime.

It was wrong in imposing its view on abortion on America through the courts rather than through the democratic process.

It was wrong in teaching a generation of men and women that men and women differ because of socialization not because of innate sex differences.

It was wrong in reducing sex to a purely biological and health issue for a generation of young Americans.

It was wrong in identifying "flag waving" with fascism.

It was wrong in supporting the teachers' unions rather than students and educational reform.

It was wrong in allying itself with trial lawyers and blocking tort reform.

It was wrong in blocking the military from recruiting on campuses and teaching a generation of young Americans that "war is not the answer" when war is at times the one moral answer.

It was wrong in arguing that America is not based on Judeo-Christian values, but on secular ones like Western Europe.

It was wrong in advancing multiculturalism, which is an extreme form of moral relativism that holds all cultures morally identical and which is a doctrine designed to undermine American national identity.

In just about every instance, one could say that the Left was foolish, the Left was naive, the Left was wrong, even that the Left was dangerous. But in all of those cases, one could imagine a decent person holding any or even all of these positions.

But we now have a bright line that divides the decent -- albeit usually wrong -- Left from the indecent Left.

The Left's anti-Israel positions until now were based, at least in theory, on its opposition to Israeli occupation of Arab land and its belief in the "cycle of violence" between Israel and its enemies. However, this time there is no occupied land involved and the violence is not a cycle with its implied lack of a beginning. There is a clear aggressor -- a terror organization devoted to Islamicizing the Middle East and annihilating Israel -- and no occupation.

That is why the Israeli Left is almost universally in favor of Israel's war against Hezbollah. Amos Oz, probably Israel's best-known novelist and leading spokesman of its Left, a lifetime critic of Israeli policy vis a vis the Palestinians, wrote in the Los Angeles Times:

"Many times in the past, the Israeli peace movement has criticized Israeli military operations. Not this time. . . . This time, Israel is not invading Lebanon. It is defending itself from daily harassment and bombardment of dozens of our towns and villages. . . . There can be no moral equation between Hezbollah and Israel. Hezbollah is targeting Israeli civilians wherever they are, while Israel is targeting mostly Hezbollah."

Likewise, another longtime liberal critic of Israel, historian and Boston Globe columnist James Carroll, wrote last week:

"As one who rejects war, I regret Israel's heavy bombing of Lebanon last week, as I deplored Israeli attacks in population centers and on infrastructure in Gaza. . . . Yet, given the rejectionism of both Hamas and Hezbollah . . . is the path of negotiations actually open to Israel? . . . There is no moral equivalence between enemies here. . . . It seems urgent [to] reaffirm foundational support for Israel. . . . The fury of anti-Israel rage among Arabs and Muslims is accounted for only partially by the present conflict. It resuscitates . . . the long European habit of scapegoating Jews. . . . No one should think that embedded contempt for Jews -- anti-Semitism -- is not part of the current crisis."

Amos Oz and James Carroll are men of the Left who have been tested and passed the most clarifying moral litmus test of our time -- Israel's fight for existence against the primitives, fanatics and sadists in Hezbollah and Hamas and elsewhere in the Arab/Muslim world who wish to destroy it. Anyone on the Left who cannot see this is either bad, a useful idiot for Islamic terrorists, anti-Semitic or all three. There is no other explanation for morally condemning Israel's war on Hezbollah.
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