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Old 07-31-2006, 11:36 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It is a sad concequence that terrorism works so effectively in the modern world, civilians are routinely put on the firing line and that the state sponsers are only emboldened.


this has been the best, most perceptive comment of the whole thread. this isn't France in 1944, this is something completely different, and traditional methods nations ahve historically used to defend themselves have been twisted by the methods of terrorism into precisely the worst way to defend themselves. it simply doesn't matter if Israel has the "right" to defend itself, and it simply doesn't matter how accurate Israeli bombs are and how well try try to avoid civilians (and i believe that they do). the methods of terrorism subvert these actions, totally, and actually turn the strengths of a nation like Israel (military might, concern for innocent civilians) into their biggest weaknesses. all the tanks and all the bombs and all the pointless nonexistent historical parallels and all the justification in the world isn't going to make a pound of difference because the rules of modern warfare don't apply, and the tactics of modern warfare play into the hands of the enemy.

if Hezbollah gets Israelis to (unintentionally) kill innocent civilians, then Hezbollah has won, even if it isn't their "fault." it doesn't matter if Hezbollah straps a 6 year old girl to the barrel of a tank and Israel drops a bomb on the tank. the girl is still dead, and the bomb came from Israel. through grief, rage, sadness, destruction, rubble, blood, and scattered dismembered body parts -- a finger here, a foot there, a half decapitated body in a car over there -- nuance is lost.

they're winning. we need new thinking. a bomb might kill 10 terrorists. but 100 more crawl out of the smouldering crater.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:01 PM   #47
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Originally posted by Irvine511




this has been the best, most perceptive comment of the whole thread. this isn't France in 1944, this is something completely different, and traditional methods nations ahve historically used to defend themselves have been twisted by the methods of terrorism into precisely the worst way to defend themselves. it simply doesn't matter if Israel has the "right" to defend itself, and it simply doesn't matter how accurate Israeli bombs are and how well try try to avoid civilians (and i believe that they do). the methods of terrorism subvert these actions, totally, and actually turn the strengths of a nation like Israel (military might, concern for innocent civilians) into their biggest weaknesses. all the tanks and all the bombs and all the pointless nonexistent historical parallels and all the justification in the world isn't going to make a pound of difference because the rules of modern warfare don't apply, and the tactics of modern warfare play into the hands of the enemy.

if Hezbollah gets Israelis to (unintentionally) kill innocent civilians, then Hezbollah has won, even if it isn't their "fault." it doesn't matter if Hezbollah straps a 6 year old girl to the barrel of a tank and Israel drops a bomb on the tank. the girl is still dead, and the bomb came from Israel. through grief, rage, sadness, destruction, rubble, blood, and scattered dismembered body parts -- a finger here, a foot there, a half decapitated body in a car over there -- nuance is lost.

they're winning. we need new thinking. a bomb might kill 10 terrorists. but 100 more crawl out of the smouldering crater.
Really, is that what happened in 2001 with Al Quada in Afghanistan? Israel has been dealing with terrorism longer than any other country on the planet, and they know full well what is effective and what is not in combating it. Military force is a key in combating terrorism anywhere in the world. Just look at the British military's role in Northern Ireland and defeating the IRA. The US military's role in defeating the Viet Cong by the early 1970s after which the Vietnam War became an interstate war between North Vietnam and South Vietnam with the insurgency no longer a factor in the south.

Indeed, fighting terrorism does not only involve the use of military force and political and economic factors are very important. But in regards to the immediate safety of ones citizens, being rocketed by thousands of rocket launchers located all across Lebanon, to suggest that there should be no military response to that is just absurd. What exactly do you expect Israel to do in order to prevent the incursions into its territory by Hezbollah and the unprovoked rocketing of its towns? What do you think the United States would do in order to stop any entity that was rocketing towns in Texas from across the Mexican border if the Mexican government was incapable of stopping it?

If you have a better plan for defending the citizens of Israel from the immediate rocket attacks against their towns and the border incursions by Hezbollah to kill and kidnap people, lets here it. I'm sure AchtungBono who is in Tel Aviv will be interested in reading what this plan would involve.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:07 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Even he understands? Sting, I dont care what he thinks. Bono and his windbag opinions mean nothing in this. Anyone who uses him as a compass for deciding a view on something probably lacks the capacity for independant thought. Using him as an avenue to learn is another matter, but I digress. Why his name came up in this thread is beyond me.

I dont see logical reasons why violence is the only means for solution in so many situations. Anyway I refuse to argue this with some of you lot. Knock yourselves out.
No one is using Bono as a compass for deciding a view on something, but it is interesting to see someone who is often mistakenly considered a pacifist, a liberal, recognize that military action is sometimes necessary. BONO certainly has a better understanding of the need for military force in certain situations than the Head Of World Vision.

Really though, if you were the Prime Minister of Israel and your nothern towns were being hit by thousands of rockets from a country that had no capacity to stop the rocket attacks, what would you do to defend the citizens of your country? How many citizens in your country would have to die from this terrorism before you would use the military ?
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:12 PM   #49
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Originally posted by deep





this has been a loss for Israel

and a win Hezbollah

and what was Israel thinking when they named their Gaza campaign "Samson's pillars"?
If Israel does not intensify its military compaign, which has been very restrained up to now, or in fact were to completely stop military action now, you might be right from a political stand point, especially if Hezbollah is not disarmed in any sort of agreement that may come about.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:44 PM   #50
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here is some good news

Israelis with the right ideas.


Quote:
Soldier sentenced to 28 days for refusing to serve in Lebanon

By Amos Harel, Yuli Khromchenko, Lily Galili, Gideon Alon and Yoav Stern

The first person to refuse to do army service during the current fighting was sentenced Sunday to 28 days in a military prison. According to the refusal organization Yesh Gvul, which issued a public statement Sunday urging others to follow in Amir Fester's footsteps, more than 10 other people have contacted the organization about the possibility of refusing to serve.

While some of them have answered reserve duty call-ups and are participating in military training, they have said that they will not take part in the fighting, according to organization spokesman Yishai Menuchin.

Sunday's bombing in Qana sparked an immediate surge in Israeli opposition to the fighting in Lebanon. Spontaneous demonstrations and petitions were organized within hours, and drew more people than the organized demonstrations of the previous two weeks.


One of the demonstrations, organized by senior officials from Meretz, took place in front of the Defense Ministry compound in the Kirya in Tel Aviv.

Dozens of members and top officials of the party protested despite Meretz's official position, which for the moment is one supporting the Lebanon offensive.

Demonstrators held signs which read, "Cease-fire now," calling for immediate negotiations with Lebanon and Syria. Another sign was emblazoned with, "We are a strong but thinking homefront."

"We wanted to protest the foolishness of this war," attorney Yifat Solel, who also serves on the Meretz board of directors, told Haaretz. "It's obvious that a military operation would cause the harming of innocents, and that the most significant achievement would be reached only through diplomatic negotiations."
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744379.html
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:46 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


If Israel does not intensify its military compaign, which has been very restrained up to now,
well ,

there is no way they will intensify


so from a political or whatever you want to call it

this has not been good for Israel
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:02 PM   #52
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The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...7220%2C00.html

Hizbulla chicken shit fighters who use Civilian neighbor hoods to fight israel and then blame israel for the deaths of innocents.
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Old 07-31-2006, 04:19 PM   #53
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I support the state of Israel and understand that it must defend itself. I have some question marks about some of the particulars of their campaign against the terrorists. The terrorists have got to be disarmed. But the Lebanese and the Palestinians will have to be dealt with, and a just and lasting situation involving all of these people, the Jews, the Lebanese, and the Palestinians, will have to be found.
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:02 PM   #54
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Originally posted by STING2


Do you know for a fact that everyone in France wanted the Normandy invasion, and did not mind the sudden death of 20,000 civilians over 7 days? Do you really think Hezbollah and their supporters speak for everyone in Lebanon? What about casualties in Germany? Do you think it was wrong for the USA to bomb roads, bridges, etc. in Germany as Allied forces advance towards and into Germany during World War II? What about Afghanistan, was it wrong for the United States to conduct a far more intensive bombing compaign on Afghanistan that resulted in greater destruction but achieved its stated objectives?
Well, certainly not everyone in France wanted the invasion. Say the Vichy government for example. But you're missing my point. That was a conventional war against a nation-state. All I've asked you to do is to concede that this is what is happening between Israel and Lebanon, and you refuse to do so. I'm not sure why.

I think you're making some very unfair assumptions about myself and other like-minded posters here. You're assuming that anything other than unqualified, unquestioning support of any and all actions Israel takes equals support for Hezbollah. I've got news for you--NO ONE on this site supports Hezbollah, their actions, or their goals. It's like if I see a basketball player hurling the basketball at the backboard and I say, "You know there might be a better way to do that" and the player turns around and says, "Hey, you should support me! Obviously you just want me to lose!" Everyone I've read posting here agrees that Israel has a right to defend itself. Everyone I've read posting here is aware that Israel's very existence has been threatened since it's inception and that they've had to fight simply for the right to exist. All some of us are asking is "might there be a better way to keep Israel safe AND reduce the loss of civilian life." You say no, and consider any dissent as an attack on Israel!


Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I'll say that every war the United States has been involved in has indeed been just. There have been criminal actions committed by lower ranking people working in the government or military at various times, but in terms of national policy in regards to the wars it has fought in, they have all been justified.
Surely you must be joking. Last I checked our country has been run by human beings, not infallible gods. How can any country have EVERY war it has ever been involved in be just. There are many wars that have been both necessary and just--The American Revolution, the War of 1812, the Civil War, World War I and World War II and the invasion of Afghanistan come to mind. But for others--the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, and especially the Indian Wars, there is at the very least some question of the "justness" of these wars. I suppose if you equate national policy with "justness" then yes. But then every nation can claim they are fighting a "just war" and that isn't possible, is it? (Especially if they're fighting agaisnt us).



Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I'd like to ask what you think about Hezbollah? What responsbility do they bear by imbedding themselves into the Lebanese population? Hiding their facilities among residential neighborhoods and launching missiles from residential neighborhoods? Doesn't Israel have the right to hit Hezbollah missile launchers, nearly all of which are positioned in Lebanese neighborhoods?
I think Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that needs to be stopped. Why are we not more vocal in complaining more about them? Because they're beyond reasoning with, in my opinon. Israel is a reasonable, democratic country that might be persuaded to pursue different means of preseserving their national security. There won't be much reasoning with Hezbollah, I'm afraid. Do I think that Hezbollah's hiding among civilians is wrong? Of course! Just like I think, when a bank robber comes out of the bank with hostage in one arm and a gun in the other. The police could say, "Damn that robber. . .that is so wrong to use a hostage as a shield like that" and then open fire mowing them both down. But the police generally don't do that. But again, as I've already said, if Israel is indeed engaged in conventional warfare against Lebanon, then yes dropping bombs on missile launchers in neighborhoods would be a sad but necessaryaction. Would you agree that Israel is engaging in conventional warfare against Lebanon?



Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
There is only one guilty party in this conflict, and it is Hezbollah.
There is only one guilty party less often than we'd like to believe.
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:13 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
You all have known me through my posts over the years. You know that I'm a lover of peace and I have a very strong sense of justice. I have never made any posts that were deliberately offensive or derogatory to anyone. We on the board may have differences of opinions but we all basically respect each other.

I am saying all this to explain the harsh tone I'm about to take in this post - mainly because I'm sick and tired of my country getting labeled as "aggressors, butchers and savages" as reflected in some of the emails I've been receiving (and those are the words I can repeat....).

As one of the few Israelis on this forum, I'm feeling like I'm carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders whenever I'm asked to explain Israel's actions in Gaza and Lebanon.

It takes a certain kind of circumstance to push my buttons and this is exactly what happened with yesterday's incident in Qana, and our subsequent apology made by our wimp of a prime minister.

I would be a totally heartless bitch if my heart didn't break at the sight of the dead children's bodies being pulled out from the rubble of the building in Qana.....however.....I am totally ASHAMED at my government for apologizing for this incident - as if WE were the ones responsible...

WHY the hell do WE have to apologize?? we didn't deliberately target that building knowing there were civillians in there - unlike the Hezbollah whose rockets are directly targeted at our northern cities. It's no secret that the Hezbollah in Lebanon use civillians as shields and I have no doubt that their leaders are rubbing their hands in glee over this wonderful turn of events (for them). No doubt champagne bottles are being opened in Tehran as we speak, with that bastard Ahmed-in-a-jar congratulating his protoges for a job well done - so many civillians killed in one swoop....with the fact that there were children there being an added bonus - YIPEEE!

Before the world comes down on Israel like a ton of bricks (like they already are...) let's not lose sight of the facts:

1. Israel didn't start this war - Hezbollah did by crossing our border, attacking our outpost and capturing two soldiers. You may argue that the force of our response was disproportionate to the instigating action but don't forget that we've been bullied by Hezbollah's illegal presence in south Lebanon for over 20 years. Every few years, since the end of the Lebanon war, the Hezbollah have initiated unprovoked rocket attacks against our northern cities and finally it was time to say ENOUGH!

2. Israel doesn't target civillians. Each Israeli airforce strike was aimed at a target which we knew contained Hezbollah offices and ammunition depots embedded in populated areas. This proves what I've been saying for so long about terror organizations like Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon - they don't give a SHIT about their own people - their main objective is to fight us and if ordinary citizens get killed in the process...hey what the hell, we can always blame the Israelis, right?

3. Don't be fooled by this 48 hour cease-fire. Make no mistake that the Hezbollah will use this time to re-group, move their long-range missiles closer to Tel-Aviv (where I am at this moment), get another fat cheque from the maniac in Tehran and stamp their feet impatiantly waiting for the next phase to start - and it WILL start.

4. Israel has no fight with Lebanon and certainly not with Syria. This is proven by the reduced forces that Israel is using in this war. Israel isn't even using HALF of its military capability because we do not want to cause unnecessary damage to Lebanon and its people, who are suffering enough because of the Hezbollah. Israel is not interested in expanding this war - our objective is clear: to do what the Lebanese government is powerless to do - get rid of the Hezbollah's illegal presence in south Lebanon and take our northern cities out of the range of their weapons. I can understand why the Lebanese don't want to do that - they are held captive by Syria and Iran (who controls the Hezbollah). So if THEY won't do the job - we have to.....and believe me when I say that the Lebanese government will thank us later when their country is totally free and the Hezbollah is driven out to where they belong....in Iran (or in HELL....as the case may be).
AB, I noticed that there was very little response to your post and I suppose I understand why. Replying to someone who is living this right now is a dicey proposition.

But I did want you to know that I don't want to "drop a ton of bricks on Israel." I'd never suggest that your country should just sit back and "take it" and a lot of my arguments here have had to do more with a kind of tunnel vision that some of my fellow posters seem to have regarding this issue. I realize that for you this is not some "armchair debate" it is life and death, and I sincerely apologize if I've ever come across as insensitive to that.

You've given me a lot to think about in your post--the biggest thing being the answer to the question I've been asking throughout this thread--is there a "better way" for Israel to take on Hezbollah than they currently are. As I read your post, I thought, perhaps not.

I hope you stay safe and my prayers are for the peace and safety of everyone in your part of the world.
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:24 PM   #56
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The US military's role in defeating the Viet Cong by the early 1970s after which the Vietnam War became an interstate war between North Vietnam and South Vietnam with the insurgency no longer a factor in the south.

If you wonder why AB could post essentially the same arguments you made and she gave me pause while I continued to challenge you, it's because of stuff like this. Is this really how you see the Vietnam War? That we "defeated" the Vietcong? What planet are you on? I know this is off-topic, but this is why I keep arguing with you. You've got this relentlessly sunny view of American foreign policy since at least. . .well since the beginning of our nation that just does NOT square with reality at all!
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:28 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
You all have known me through my posts over the years. You know that I'm a lover of peace and I have a very strong sense of justice. I have never made any posts that were deliberately offensive or derogatory to anyone. We on the board may have differences of opinions but we all basically respect each other.

I am saying all this to explain the harsh tone I'm about to take in this post - mainly because I'm sick and tired of my country getting labeled as "aggressors, butchers and savages" as reflected in some of the emails I've been receiving (and those are the words I can repeat....).

As one of the few Israelis on this forum, I'm feeling like I'm carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders whenever I'm asked to explain Israel's actions in Gaza and Lebanon.

It takes a certain kind of circumstance to push my buttons and this is exactly what happened with yesterday's incident in Qana, and our subsequent apology made by our wimp of a prime minister.

I would be a totally heartless bitch if my heart didn't break at the sight of the dead children's bodies being pulled out from the rubble of the building in Qana.....however.....I am totally ASHAMED at my government for apologizing for this incident - as if WE were the ones responsible...

WHY the hell do WE have to apologize?? we didn't deliberately target that building knowing there were civillians in there - unlike the Hezbollah whose rockets are directly targeted at our northern cities. It's no secret that the Hezbollah in Lebanon use civillians as shields and I have no doubt that their leaders are rubbing their hands in glee over this wonderful turn of events (for them). No doubt champagne bottles are being opened in Tehran as we speak, with that bastard Ahmed-in-a-jar congratulating his protoges for a job well done - so many civillians killed in one swoop....with the fact that there were children there being an added bonus - YIPEEE!

Before the world comes down on Israel like a ton of bricks (like they already are...) let's not lose sight of the facts:

1. Israel didn't start this war - Hezbollah did by crossing our border, attacking our outpost and capturing two soldiers. You may argue that the force of our response was disproportionate to the instigating action but don't forget that we've been bullied by Hezbollah's illegal presence in south Lebanon for over 20 years. Every few years, since the end of the Lebanon war, the Hezbollah have initiated unprovoked rocket attacks against our northern cities and finally it was time to say ENOUGH!

2. Israel doesn't target civillians. Each Israeli airforce strike was aimed at a target which we knew contained Hezbollah offices and ammunition depots embedded in populated areas. This proves what I've been saying for so long about terror organizations like Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon - they don't give a SHIT about their own people - their main objective is to fight us and if ordinary citizens get killed in the process...hey what the hell, we can always blame the Israelis, right?

3. Don't be fooled by this 48 hour cease-fire. Make no mistake that the Hezbollah will use this time to re-group, move their long-range missiles closer to Tel-Aviv (where I am at this moment), get another fat cheque from the maniac in Tehran and stamp their feet impatiantly waiting for the next phase to start - and it WILL start.

4. Israel has no fight with Lebanon and certainly not with Syria. This is proven by the reduced forces that Israel is using in this war. Israel isn't even using HALF of its military capability because we do not want to cause unnecessary damage to Lebanon and its people, who are suffering enough because of the Hezbollah. Israel is not interested in expanding this war - our objective is clear: to do what the Lebanese government is powerless to do - get rid of the Hezbollah's illegal presence in south Lebanon and take our northern cities out of the range of their weapons. I can understand why the Lebanese don't want to do that - they are held captive by Syria and Iran (who controls the Hezbollah). So if THEY won't do the job - we have to.....and believe me when I say that the Lebanese government will thank us later when their country is totally free and the Hezbollah is driven out to where they belong....in Iran (or in HELL....as the case may be).

I have no quarrel with Israel. I have one with the posters who think criticism of Israel's policies is support of terrorism and that nutjub in Iran. I understand that you in Israel have been dealing with this every day of your life and you can't get on a bus in Tel Aviv without worrying about some idiot who thinks he's going to get 70 virgins in Paradise for blowing the thing up. I hope I don't seem insensitive about the difficulties of being an Israeli these days, or, for that matter, in the past.
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:38 PM   #58
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as *ALL* Americans should be well able to understand, as we've lived this for the past 5 years, at least, criticism of Israeli tactics does not equal criticism of Israel as a nation or criticism of individual Israelis.

we support and love you all, and wish for you nothing but safety and security and the hope that this madness will soon pass.

what is dispicable is those who would seek to draw connections between reasoned, rational critiques of military tactics with anti-Semitism. it's no better than someone criticizing the war in Iraq being called a hateful anti-American.
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:55 PM   #59
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I'm with Irvine. I question American policies, I do not believe all of our wars have been just, and I take exception to being referred as an unpatriotic American when I criticize American policies or policies of U.S. allies. I'm not an expert on military history. Military history is my Achilles' heel as an historian. I don't rule out me making a mistake in my military history discussions on this forum. But don't color me anti-American or anti-Semitic. I have no time for these vile ideologies.
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:21 PM   #60
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It would be interesting to hear from some Lebanese posters.
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