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Old 07-31-2006, 12:34 AM   #31
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If using civilians as a shield so key, then why the 2 day ceasefire so the civilians can get out?
makes no sense to me. The head of World Vision was on some shittastic morning show this morning and he explained in such clear terms why war is no longer effective. He also finished with the reason governments dont stop or acknowledge this is the money they gain from arms. I'd rather believe him than someone on an internet forum.
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:50 AM   #32
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This "we dropped leaflets so civilians should have moved out" argument is utter bullshit and can only be propagated by people who have never lived as civilians in a war zone. Nobody who lived through that would ever say anything even closely approaching something so absurd.

We are talking about poor, third world people. So they should get into their Hummers and drive down the bombed out, impassable roads which the Israelis themselves said they can't guarantee security for? And go where, exactly? The old, the infirm, the women and children get trapped! There is no safe way out, you have nowhere to go, you have no money and no plans and nobody waiting for you "on the other side" which by the way, doesn't really exist since the whole country seems to be fair game.

But hey, they stayed, those lazy lugs, just like the lazyasses in New Orleans, so now they have to accept their fate. Sucks to be you! And every single civilian house there has Hezbollah in their backyard, so we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night and feel a hell of a lot better about 34 children blown to smitherines this morning.

The ambulance didn't get to them for 6 HOURS because the roads are impenetrable and unsafe. So if the Red Cross can't move in, how in the hell do you expect these people to get out?

I swear, humanity astounds me sometimes.
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:57 AM   #33
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
If using civilians as a shield so key, then why the 2 day ceasefire so the civilians can get out?
makes no sense to me. The head of World Vision was on some shittastic morning show this morning and he explained in such clear terms why war is no longer effective. He also finished with the reason governments dont stop or acknowledge this is the money they gain from arms. I'd rather believe him than someone on an internet forum.
Israel announced the ceacefire, Hezbollah did not. Hezbollah fighters will continue to position themselves and key equipment where ever the civilian population moves to. They have continued to fire from RESIDENTIAL neighborhoods at Israel.

As for the Head of World Vision, even BONO recognizes the need for military action at times as well as having a military. BONO wanted to see US and NATO military action in Bosnia early on when there was none, and strongly supported it when it finally happened. He also supported the US bombing and invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 as noted by the 2001 year end issue of HOT PRESS in which he was interviewed on the matter.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:07 AM   #34
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Whats utter bullshit is blaming a country for defending itself against a terrorist organization that purposely fires from places where there are civilians in the hopes that those civilians will be killed when the Israeli's return fire.

There are few other countries on the planet that have lived and spent their entire lives in a WAR ZONE than the Israeli population! Its incredible how people ignore what Israel has been through for the past 58 years. How about asking the people of the democratic country of Israel how they feel about that matter? Israel is strongly united on the current military response, just as they have been on other matters of defense of their country for the past 58 years, despite the bullshit they have to deal with from some Europeans and others around the world.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:20 AM   #35
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i couldn't honestly care what bono thinks, sting. he's not the be all and end all of authority on war.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:36 AM   #36
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Originally posted by STING2
Whats utter bullshit is blaming a country for defending itself against a terrorist organization that purposely fires from places where there are civilians in the hopes that those civilians will be killed when the Israeli's return fire.

There are few other countries on the planet that have lived and spent their entire lives in a WAR ZONE than the Israeli population! Its incredible how people ignore what Israel has been through for the past 58 years. How about asking the people of the democratic country of Israel how they feel about that matter? Israel is strongly united on the current military response, just as they have been on other matters of defense of their country for the past 58 years, despite the bullshit they have to deal with from some Europeans and others around the world.
I can't see these actions providing a single benefit to Israel. I think they've just gained themselves another generation who wants to wipe them off the face of the earth. That's my pro-Israel opinion. Military force will only ever provide the shortest of short term solutions to Israel's security problems and the safety of it's own citizens. Israel has every right to defend itself, and in my opinion has every right to crack it and go after a terrorist organisation like Hezbollah head on, but when you are dealing with a cycle of violence like this, where specificaly your retalitory actions are what gives the enemy it's greatest inspiration, drive and all of it's popularity and muscle, it is long term pointless. It is effectively handing the problem onto the next generation, refusing to meaningfuly deal with it yourself.
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:44 AM   #37
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I can't see these actions providing a single benefit to Israel. I think they've just gained themselves another generation who wants to wipe them off the face of the earth. That's my pro-Israel opinion. Military force will only ever provide the shortest of short term solutions to Israel's security problems and the safety of it's own citizens. Israel has every right to defend itself, and in my opinion has every right to crack it and go after a terrorist organisation like Hezbollah head on, but when you are dealing with a cycle of violence like this, where specificaly your retalitory actions are what gives the enemy it's greatest inspiration, drive and all of it's popularity and muscle, it is long term pointless. It is effectively handing the problem onto the next generation, refusing to meaningfuly deal with it yourself.
So your the leader of Israel, a terrorist organization has been coming into your country from across the border and trying to capture and kill your people on multiple ocassions. They are also rocketing your towns from across the border. No one in Lebanon will do anything about the problem. Supplies and extra military hardware are coming into this terrorist organization from other countries that don't recognize your right to exist and have in fact openly said your country should be wiped off the map. How many dead civilians and soldiers and terror do you plan to tolerate before you actually take military action to stop the totally unprovoked attacks on your country?

Everyone claims that Israel has a right to defend itself, but no one spells out what Israel is allowed to do in defending itself. Every action they take in defending themselves is criticized, despite the fact that current Israeli military action so far has been very restrained and limited, especially relative to past Israeli actions in its 58 year history.


Israel has succeeded for the past 58 years from preventing their country from being wiped off the face of the map. They did not achieve this plus become one of the most prosperous countries on the planet by avoiding military action or by the belief that in defending yourself, you simply make matters worse. Consider whether or not Israel would even exist today if it had not acted early, agressively with military force to defend itself in 1948, 1967, 1973 and other wars and conflicts.



Israel is prepared to live the way it has lived for the past 60 years for another 60 100, 200 years or more. Israeli society has grown and prospered despite all the events of the past 60 years. The West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, remain relatively poor countries that continue to be held back by those that support terrorism against Israel. After 60 years, why don't they try and do something that is actually constructive instead of continuing to drag the area's where they live into ruin and poverty by attacking a country that has every right to exist?

The questions and choices are for the Lebanese and Palestinians to make. They are the ones that live poorly because of 60 years of agression against Israel. Israel has what it wants, and will continue to advance further and further into the future leaving their neighbors in the past. Israel has faced far greater crises and defended itself well in the past and is ready to do so indefinitely into the future.

To those in Lebanon, the West Bank, and Gaza who engage in their pointless attempts to destroy Israel, if you care about your childern, stop fighting and sending them to die in suicide bombing attacks against a country that has every right to exist. Instead, concentrate on building a new society that will benefit your family instead of sending them across the border into another country to kill themselves and other innocent civilians. If they want another 60 years of terrorism against Israel, and pain and suffering for their families and communities, then that is what they will get. But if they desire a better life for the families and communities, put down the suicide bomb belts and stop learning how to fire rockets into Israel. Find someone in your community to help and work to make their lives better instead of engaging in pointless terrorism that only makes their lives worse.
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:46 AM   #38
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
i couldn't honestly care what bono thinks, sting. he's not the be all and end all of authority on war.
Exactly, but even he understands that military action is necessary sometimes.
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:58 AM   #39
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this has been a loss for Israel

and a win Hezbollah

and what was Israel thinking when they named their Gaza campaign "Samson's pillars"?
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:05 AM   #40
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Even he understands? Sting, I dont care what he thinks. Bono and his windbag opinions mean nothing in this. Anyone who uses him as a compass for deciding a view on something probably lacks the capacity for independant thought. Using him as an avenue to learn is another matter, but I digress. Why his name came up in this thread is beyond me.

I dont see logical reasons why violence is the only means for solution in so many situations. Anyway I refuse to argue this with some of you lot. Knock yourselves out.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:12 AM   #41
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So perpetual war and/or one all inflaming big one. Cool.
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Old 07-31-2006, 04:54 AM   #42
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You all have known me through my posts over the years. You know that I'm a lover of peace and I have a very strong sense of justice. I have never made any posts that were deliberately offensive or derogatory to anyone. We on the board may have differences of opinions but we all basically respect each other.

I am saying all this to explain the harsh tone I'm about to take in this post - mainly because I'm sick and tired of my country getting labeled as "aggressors, butchers and savages" as reflected in some of the emails I've been receiving (and those are the words I can repeat....).

As one of the few Israelis on this forum, I'm feeling like I'm carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders whenever I'm asked to explain Israel's actions in Gaza and Lebanon.

It takes a certain kind of circumstance to push my buttons and this is exactly what happened with yesterday's incident in Qana, and our subsequent apology made by our wimp of a prime minister.

I would be a totally heartless bitch if my heart didn't break at the sight of the dead children's bodies being pulled out from the rubble of the building in Qana.....however.....I am totally ASHAMED at my government for apologizing for this incident - as if WE were the ones responsible...

WHY the hell do WE have to apologize?? we didn't deliberately target that building knowing there were civillians in there - unlike the Hezbollah whose rockets are directly targeted at our northern cities. It's no secret that the Hezbollah in Lebanon use civillians as shields and I have no doubt that their leaders are rubbing their hands in glee over this wonderful turn of events (for them). No doubt champagne bottles are being opened in Tehran as we speak, with that bastard Ahmed-in-a-jar congratulating his protoges for a job well done - so many civillians killed in one swoop....with the fact that there were children there being an added bonus - YIPEEE!

Before the world comes down on Israel like a ton of bricks (like they already are...) let's not lose sight of the facts:

1. Israel didn't start this war - Hezbollah did by crossing our border, attacking our outpost and capturing two soldiers. You may argue that the force of our response was disproportionate to the instigating action but don't forget that we've been bullied by Hezbollah's illegal presence in south Lebanon for over 20 years. Every few years, since the end of the Lebanon war, the Hezbollah have initiated unprovoked rocket attacks against our northern cities and finally it was time to say ENOUGH!

2. Israel doesn't target civillians. Each Israeli airforce strike was aimed at a target which we knew contained Hezbollah offices and ammunition depots embedded in populated areas. This proves what I've been saying for so long about terror organizations like Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon - they don't give a SHIT about their own people - their main objective is to fight us and if ordinary citizens get killed in the process...hey what the hell, we can always blame the Israelis, right?

3. Don't be fooled by this 48 hour cease-fire. Make no mistake that the Hezbollah will use this time to re-group, move their long-range missiles closer to Tel-Aviv (where I am at this moment), get another fat cheque from the maniac in Tehran and stamp their feet impatiantly waiting for the next phase to start - and it WILL start.

4. Israel has no fight with Lebanon and certainly not with Syria. This is proven by the reduced forces that Israel is using in this war. Israel isn't even using HALF of its military capability because we do not want to cause unnecessary damage to Lebanon and its people, who are suffering enough because of the Hezbollah. Israel is not interested in expanding this war - our objective is clear: to do what the Lebanese government is powerless to do - get rid of the Hezbollah's illegal presence in south Lebanon and take our northern cities out of the range of their weapons. I can understand why the Lebanese don't want to do that - they are held captive by Syria and Iran (who controls the Hezbollah). So if THEY won't do the job - we have to.....and believe me when I say that the Lebanese government will thank us later when their country is totally free and the Hezbollah is driven out to where they belong....in Iran (or in HELL....as the case may be).
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:27 AM   #43
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Israel is strongly united on the current military response, just as they have been on other matters of defense of their country for the past 58 years, despite the bullshit they have to deal with from some Europeans and others around the world.
Oh, here we go again!

You really have some twisted fascination with Europeans on this matter. It's almost creepy.
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:38 AM   #44
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During the second intafada I can think of a few examples where European powers jumped to the conclusion ahead of the evidence; the Mohammed al Dura shooting and the Jenin "massacre" come to mind.

In this war Israel simply cannot win the perception, no matter what it does Hezbollah comes out ahead (if Lebanese civilians die it is PR fodder, if more Israelis die it is resistance and if they are left standing at the end then they will chalk it up as a victory). It is fucked up - if an international force and intervene and actually take action against Hezbollah and enforce the UN resolutions calling for the disbanding of that terrorist organisation then the objectives will be achieved. It is a sad concequence that terrorism works so effectively in the modern world, civilians are routinely put on the firing line and that the state sponsers are only emboldened.
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Old 07-31-2006, 10:59 AM   #45
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Iran is a significant, respected player in the Middle East which is playing a stabilizing role, French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy said Monday, during a visit to Lebanon.

“It was clear that we could never accept a destabilization of Lebanon, which could lead to a destabilization of the region,” Douste-Blazy said in Beirut.

“In the region there is of course a country such as Iran - a great country, a great people and a great civilization which is respected and which plays a stabilizing role in the region,” he told a news conference.
link

Which way is the wind blowing? Once it does go nuclear the entire Arab world may get to enjoy the stabilising element of Iran just like they did the Ottomans.
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