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Old 07-30-2006, 01:49 AM   #16
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The US funded the Mujahadeen which included those that went on to become the Northern Alliance, the Afghan Arabs like Osama had funding from Saudi Arabia.
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:11 AM   #17
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The US funded the Mujahadeen which included those that went on to become the Northern Alliance, the Afghan Arabs like Osama had funding from Saudi Arabia.

are you just making this shit up?


or did you read it on some right wing blog
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Old 07-30-2006, 03:27 AM   #18
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No, the evidence for direct funding and training to Osama bin Laden directly from the US (not the ISI) is notably absent. Specific accusations need specific evidence because while it is definitely true that the US assisted Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan that preceeded the Taliban and did not go to all of the Arab's who fought in the conflict.
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Old 07-30-2006, 10:10 AM   #19
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now this, is anti-semitism
not criticizing Israeli government policies
It certainly impressed some marchers at a protest here



Charmers, In vino veritas for Gibson but just unabashed bile for that particular protestor.
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Old 07-30-2006, 12:03 PM   #20
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
No, the evidence for direct funding and training to Osama bin Laden directly from the US (not the ISI) is notably absent. Specific accusations need specific evidence because while it is definitely true that the US assisted Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan that preceeded the Taliban and did not go to all of the Arab's who fought in the conflict.
Saudi Arabia was one of three countries that recognized the Taliban government as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. However, they stripped bin Laden of his Saudi citizenship, so their position with bin Laden has been fickle, to say the least.
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Old 07-30-2006, 12:11 PM   #21
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They only stripped him of Saudi citizenship in 1995, during the 1980's it was money from the Gulf States that was given to their young men who went off to fight the jihad against the Atheist Empire (USSR).
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Old 07-30-2006, 12:18 PM   #22
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So he was still a Saudi citizen when they gave him the money. That figures.
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Old 07-30-2006, 12:28 PM   #23
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Thats not to say that the US did not back some very evil men to get the Soviets out but the evidence for Osama being a creation of the CIA directly is wanting.
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Old 07-30-2006, 01:22 PM   #24
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Originally posted by AliEnvy


Although interestingly seizing, controlling and limiting Iran's oil supply is exactly what Bush's "pre-emptive" nuclear bunker-busters are going to pave the way for. So yes, there is going to be a global depression.
The Bush administration has no desire to limit, sieze, or sabotage any energy supplies from the middle east because of the serious negative impacts that would be caused to the global economy in doing so. Any sort of bunker-buster weapons would be used against specific targets related to the Iranian military. The seizure and and sabotage of Persian Gulf energy supplies from multiple countries of which one must be Saudi Arabia would cause a global depression. Most of Iran's oil comes from their province of Kuzustan in southwest corner of the country and while being cut off from this supply would indeed cause a recession, its not viewed by itself as something that would cause a global depression do to the current producing capacity in the rest of the gulf as well as the massive known reserves located in Saudi Arabia.
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Old 07-30-2006, 01:38 PM   #25
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Are you forgetting that Osama Bin Laden was trained and funded by the CIA to create a terrorist insurgency in Afganistan against the Soviets...which turned out to be successful...

I keep saying it, he's (re)building his army in Iraq which can only happen as long as the US is there pissing people off and joining his ranks.
The United States provided 1/3 of the money that supported various groups in Afghanistan that were resisting the Soviet invasion and occupation of that country. Mossud, the leader of what became the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan received the largest amount of that aid.

Bin Ladin did at some point have a role in Afghanistan, but there is a lot of story's out there about that role that have little or no evidence supporting it.

The Soviets did not actually withdraw because they had been defeated on the ground in Afghanistan, they withdrew because the cost of continueing the operation was not worth it given the declining economic situation within the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union literally collapsed only two years after the withdrawal from Afghanistan.

The majority of the insurgency in Iraq is not involved with Al Quada. The Al Zarqawi network of Al Quada is trying to maintain itself in Iraq, but most information suggest they have funding and support from other sources rather than Bin Ladin or other original Al Quada leadership.
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Old 07-30-2006, 04:59 PM   #26
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Well, many people in Lebanon feel that they are being held hostage by Hezbollah as well. A militant terrorist organization has hijacked Lebanon and controls much of what happens in the country. Outside of Beirut, they are essentially the government and the chief authority.
So you're suggesting that the people of Lebanon "invited" this invasion (in the way that the French Underground invited Normandy)? That's a bit of a stretch. And it also doesn't fit with the implication made earlier that the people of Lebanon's "silence" in protesting Hezbollah, implies their support of Hezbollah. They can't both be "held hostage" and also silently supporting Hezbollah can they?

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Hezbollah is a professional military organization, and the bomging of roads, bridges, the airport, and any other target that is being used by Hezbollah is clearly justified just as the United States was justified when it had done the same in every military action and war it has been involved in from the Revolutionary War in 1770s to Iraq and Afghanistan in 2001 and 2003.
This raises an interesting underlying theme to all your posts. In your opinion, has the U.S. always been justified in everything we've ever done in our history? Are we as a nation, always above reproach? And if not, would you care to share an example of a time when the U.S. government did something unjustified?

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Regardless of what you consider Hezbollah to be, a band of deadly terrorist or the real military force authority in Lebanon, the fact remains the same. In order to defend northern Israel from this military entity that is supplied by Iran and Syria through the airport, roads and bridges, it is an absolute necessity that you hit these targets to prevent resupply and the re-positioning of missiles that are being fired into Israeli cities. If southern Texas had 2,000 rockets fired at from over the border in Mexico and the Mexican military was powerless to stop it, the United States would use all means necessary to destroy and disrupt such missile strikes into the United States, to include bombing any roads, bridges, or other infrustucture being used to supply or aid or launch attacks in that engagement.
Again it seems clear that you support the contention that Israel "doing what it has to do" includes engaging in conventional warfare against the nation of Lebanon. Would you agree?
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Old 07-30-2006, 05:54 PM   #27
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Interesting article from Salon.

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Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around those targets to destroy them, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians like the plague. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.
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Old 07-30-2006, 07:29 PM   #28
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Originally posted by maycocksean


So you're suggesting that the people of Lebanon "invited" this invasion (in the way that the French Underground invited Normandy)? That's a bit of a stretch. And it also doesn't fit with the implication made earlier that the people of Lebanon's "silence" in protesting Hezbollah, implies their support of Hezbollah. They can't both be "held hostage" and also silently supporting Hezbollah can they?



This raises an interesting underlying theme to all your posts. In your opinion, has the U.S. always been justified in everything we've ever done in our history? Are we as a nation, always above reproach? And if not, would you care to share an example of a time when the U.S. government did something unjustified?



Again it seems clear that you support the contention that Israel "doing what it has to do" includes engaging in conventional warfare against the nation of Lebanon. Would you agree?
Do you know for a fact that everyone in France wanted the Normandy invasion, and did not mind the sudden death of 20,000 civilians over 7 days? Do you really think Hezbollah and their supporters speak for everyone in Lebanon? What about casualties in Germany? Do you think it was wrong for the USA to bomb roads, bridges, etc. in Germany as Allied forces advance towards and into Germany during World War II? What about Afghanistan, was it wrong for the United States to conduct a far more intensive bombing compaign on Afghanistan that resulted in greater destruction but achieved its stated objectives?


I'll say that every war the United States has been involved in has indeed been just. There have been criminal actions committed by lower ranking people working in the government or military at various times, but in terms of national policy in regards to the wars it has fought in, they have all been justified.

Israel has every right to defend itself from any military entity that threatens or is harming its citizens. Given the size and strength of Hezbollah, Israel is indeed on the road to doing what it needs to do to weaken and disarm much of Hezbollah. Hitting roads, bridges, and other facilities used to supply a military organization like Hezbollah are absolutely necessary in order to weaken or defeat it. Hezbollah in Lebanon is not much different from the Taliban and Al Quada in Afghanistan.

I'd like to ask what you think about Hezbollah? What responsbility do they bear by imbedding themselves into the Lebanese population? Hiding their facilities among residential neighborhoods and launching missiles from residential neighborhoods? Doesn't Israel have the right to hit Hezbollah missile launchers, nearly all of which are positioned in Lebanese neighborhoods?

Take a look at any map, an you'll see there are plenty of places where Hezbollah could set up missiles that are not near any towns or villiages. But think about why they set up inside the towns and villiages. They do so, to insure that Lebanese civilians are killed in any sort of military confrontation with Israel. Israel does its best to limit damage done to civilians but Hezbollah does everything it can to increase the likely hood that accidental deaths from Israeli bombardment will happen. Israel views the deaths of innocent civilians anywhere in Lebanon as a tragedy. Hezbollah views the deaths of any innocent civilians in Israel as a victory and a cause for celebration!

I find it incredible the level of totally unwarrented criticism that is leveled at Israel, while people remain almost completely silent about what Hezbollah is doing to Lebanon and Israel. There is only one guilty party in this conflict, and it is Hezbollah. Hezbollah started the conflict and targets innocent civilians. Israel is trying to defend itself without harming innocent civilians.
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Old 07-30-2006, 07:37 PM   #29
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Originally posted by anitram
Interesting article from Salon.

I suppose Salon has never seen the video of dozens of rockets fired from residential neighborhoods on nearly every major news network as well from Israel observation camera's and gun camera's displayed on TV. Hezbollah, Al Quada, the Taliban, Viet Cong, all of these militant organizations attempt to use the civilian population as a shield from which to fight from. Knowing that governments like Israel and the United States want to avoid civilian loss of life, they attempt to mix with the civilian population in order to hide themselves, and if that is not possible, inflict loss of life among the civilians do to their close proximity which is then used as a political weapon against who ever their fighting.

Does this reporter really believe there were no Hezbollah fighters in Bint Jabil prior to the fighting there? This is just absurd.
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Old 07-30-2006, 10:02 PM   #30
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Originally posted by STING2
Hezbollah, Al Quada, the Taliban, Viet Cong, all of these militant organizations attempt to use the civilian population as a shield from which to fight from.
Haven't you finished fighting the VC yet?

Seriously, get over it.
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