MERGED--> all Israel/Lebanon conflict discussion, Pt. II - Page 10 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-02-2006, 07:41 PM   #136
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 06:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Getting them to recognize Israel would be a good first step.
this is just nonsense

a way to prolong the killing


Quote:
Hamas, Fatah Agree on Document Recognizing Israel's Existence

June 27, 2006 (Bloomberg) -- The Hamas and Fatah movements, which share control of the Palestinian Authority, today agreed to back a document that implicitly recognizes Israel's right to exist.

The movements, along with other factions, agreed to accept the terms of the ``prisoners' document,'' which calls for a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem, said Sallah Zeidan, an official from the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a group in the talks. The areas were conquered by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War.

``The Palestinian factions participating in the national dialogue have agreed to the document of national accordance that was drafted by leaders of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails,'' he said in a telephone interview.

Kader Habib, a senior leader of the Islamic Jihad movement, confirmed that an agreement had been reached and said that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minster Ismael Hania may meet as early as today to sign it.

this is probably why we had Israeli gunboats blowing up families on Gaza beaches

there are parties that prefer no settlement be reached

they are intend on stealing as much of the West Bank as they can before the eventual settlement must take place
__________________

__________________
deep is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 07:52 PM   #137
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 06:06 AM
Guess Again -

Hamas denies deal recognizes Israel

Quote:
Last Updated Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:30:21 EDT
CBC News

Rival Palestinian factions Fatah and Hamas agreed on a plan Tuesday to end their power struggle, but Hamas denied earlier reports that the deal implicitly recognized Israel.

The agreement follows weeks of acrimonious negotiations surrounding the document, which was written earlier this year by Palestinian inmates in Israeli prisons.

The 18-point proposal calls for a Palestinian state alongside Israel. But Palestinian minister Abdel Rahman Zeidan told the BBC Tuesday that the deal does not recognize the state of Israel.

"There is no agreement between the Palestinians on specifically this phrase," the BBC quoted Zeidan as saying. "You will not find one word in the document clearly stating the recognition of Israel as a state. Nobody has agreed to this. This was not on the table. This was not in the dialogue."
Your continued mischaracterization of Israel is losing any sense of reasonable analysis.
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 07:57 PM   #138
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 02:06 PM
As long as they won't recognize Israel I have a problem with any deal they may work out. I'm talking basics here. Can't they open embassies in Tel Aviv, and can't Israel have an embassy in Riyadh?
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 08:13 PM   #139
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 06:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Guess Again -

Hamas denies deal recognizes Israel



Your continued mischaracterization of Israel is losing any sense of reasonable analysis.

Quote:
Last Updated Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:30:21 EDT
CBC News

Rival Palestinian factions Fatah and Hamas agreed on a plan Tuesday to end their power struggle, but Hamas denied earlier reports that the deal implicitly recognized Israel.

The agreement follows weeks of acrimonious negotiations surrounding the document, which was written earlier this year by Palestinian inmates in Israeli prisons.

The 18-point proposal calls for a Palestinian state alongside Israel. But Palestinian minister Abdel Rahman Zeidan told the BBC Tuesday that the deal does not recognize the state of Israel.

"There is no agreement between the Palestinians on specifically this phrase," the BBC quoted Zeidan as saying. "You will not find one word in the document clearly stating the recognition of Israel as a state. Nobody has agreed to this. This was not on the table. This was not in the dialogue."

Your complete one-sided bias for Israeli tactics prevent you from seeing any possibility of a settlement that is not 100% dictated by the Israelis that is essentially a surrender by the Palestinians.

Has Israel recognized a Palestinian State, their right to exist, within safe and secure boundaries?

Why can't an agreement be put in place that will mutually recognize both states?

At least, Hamas has stated "Palestinian state alongside Israel."

and not "a Palestinian State, where the State of Israel now exist."
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 08:41 PM   #140
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London/Sydney
Posts: 6,608
Local Time: 03:06 PM
Sharon was famous for saying that a Palestinian state does exist "and it's called Jordan".
__________________
Earnie Shavers is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 09:14 PM   #141
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 02:06 PM
That's the problem I had with Sharon. I never liked him. He wanted everyone to accept a completely Israeli-made agreement for a Jewish state and no separate independent Palestinian state. This isn't fair.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 09:35 PM   #142
Refugee
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,435
Local Time: 02:06 PM
There is another aspect to this that few people have been willing to discuss, and it involves Israeli society.

For all the support that the Israeli public appears to be giving Olmert, they are giving that support from bomb shelters. (Which is doubtless why we are hearing so infrequently from our only certified Israeli poster in this forum, AchtungBono, I believe? Even though he is in Tel Aviv, which so far appears to have escaped Hizbollah rockets, though with these Iranian C-132's that we have heard about, who knows how long that will last.)

There is an aspect of this conflict, and of the Arab-Israeli conflcit in general, that does not get the media attention that it ought to, regardless of whose "side" you partially or wholly support.

Curious that in much of the world's media, the issue of the slowly ticking "Palestinian population time bomb" has finally come out of the closet, but that the continuing "brain drain" from Israel does not.

The fact is, after every one of Israel's major wars, and even in years of peace such as 2002 when "minor" incidents occur such as the Jerusalem cafe bombing I referred to from my post above, Israel bleeds people. The tiny state (population what, 6 million or so? There are people in here who know far more about this stuff than me; all these 2 weeks I have been playing catch up, devouring books on the conflcit and Israeli society) is under constant pressure to keep up its Jewish population. After this conflict, which is the longest war the state has seen since 1948 (the Lebanese war does not count, stricltly speaking, in this regard, since it did not take place on Israeli soil) how can Israel not help but lose a good percantage of its population to immigration? The actual numbers will be small every year, maybe, but the fact remains that this conflict is shaping up to be something that, sadly, historians and sociologists will be writing books aboutfor decades, for all the wrong reasons. The sheer stress of living what passes for a "normal" life in this tiny strip of land has driven a small but steady trickle of people from Israel over the years, a small enough number to keep the fact under the global media's radar (or perhaps they just choose to look the other way) but if you take this number and multiply it by a decade, (maybe someone has this info?) Israel will be in very deep trouble.

There will be no more "aliyahs." There are no countries left untouched that oppressed Jews can come to Israeli from. Few if any Jews will come back to Israel from Europe or the USA. And the thing you have to remember about Israeli society is that most Israelis under the age of 40 have grown up in a "time of peace" and have never directly experienced war--if that term can be applied here--where soldiers have gone away to wars, but the state itself has not suffered a major attack--like 54 or 67 or 73. The divisions in Israeli society caused by the 1982-2000 war were purely political, like the divisions that appeared in American society during Vietnam. (The growing Israeli "peace movement" and cultural influence of the Israeli Left, which calls for the Israeli government and people to address the suffering of the Palestians, for the purposes of this post are something enterely different. I think that far more Israeli Jews have left Israel over the years because the the place has simply driven them nuts, than have done so simply to make the ultimate protest against living in a savagely polarized society.)I hope there have been some of those.

This time it is different. The Israeli population either were not born or were small children the last time Israel was in a total state of war, and it can be argued that not since the State's founding in 1948 have foreign forces (the term can be loosely used here, I guess, if it only means thousands of rockets coming over the border) invaded Israel itself. True, the IDF has not utlilized barely a fraction of its strength, etc, but I am talking about war of whatever sort taking place in Isreal itself. (Again, the Palestinians don't apply here--I KNOW they should, etc etc, but that's another subject.) While Israeli civilians have been dying in far fewer numbers because of those hastily utilized bomb shelters, the phsycological effects of this war are going to be devestating, and while Israelis are united now, when the guns are finally silent--and I pray, like we all do, that this happens asap--the effects on Israel society are going to be devestating. Young Israleis will crawl out of those bomb shelters and collectively begin to ask themsleves some hard questions about what living in Eretz Israel is really worth to them. I predict that many of those trendy young technocrats with condos on the beach in Tel Aviv, who cared little about "ancient history" such as the 1973 Yom Kippur War, will be mentally dazed, after all the "victory" parades have passed (if Olemrt decides to stage any for political value) and begin to wonder what has happened. They had illusions that the past did not matter to them, perhaps, having spent their formative years in what I call the "Golden Era " of the post-Oslo 1990s. Perhaps they had illusions that their conflict was like the Troubles in Northern Ireland--that while there were suicide bombings and little flare-ups, the climate was like that of Ireland today, where the politicians bicker and the occasional bombing happens, but progress marches on. History has now cought up with that illusion and killed it stone dead. Weeks and months after this wa ris over, the full reality of what has occurred will finally sink in. You mat be able to say that the 1982-2000 Lebanese conflcit was not Israel's Vietnam---This will be Israel's Vietnam.

How many Israelis will be like Morleigh's parents, leaving Israel for good? (Come to think of it, there are still probably some Steinbergs left in Jerusalem. You know, that has occurred to me this week: Edge must be having some pretty interesting conversations with the in-laws these days. Not that it matters in forming my opinion one bit, but I wonder what he thinks of all this. Purely from an artistic POV--let's hope this confict does NOT show up on the next album. Between Bono's avokwed dislike of Sharon and his ilk, and....well, maybe not. I hope things aren't getting ugly.)


What I'm trying to say is, while the Lebanese will be dealing with putting their country back together, Israel may the wealtheir and more technologically sophisticated country but she will have her own problems, and the biggest will be population loss, the kind that won't get any media attention. Just as Lebanon has lost already, no matter what, and most of the Western busniess investment peobably wont be be coming back to the country like it did this past decade after the civil war ended, Israel will suffer too, profoundly, for all her infrastructure is relitavely uintouched and its population loss miniscule. I predict that the numbers leaving this time will be signifigantly more than in the past. And these numbers, unlike in the past, say the 1990s when Russian immigrants came, will be irreplaceable.

A nation is her people, no more, no less. And the Arab world (and the world's media) may see Israel as this mightly technological jauggernaut and military machine, crushing her helpless neighbors, but the cold-blooded truth is that she is a tiny articfical creation, economically speaking. The fact that much of Jewish Israel resides in modern buildings, enjoying a First World standard of living, protected by a mightly miltary machine, means jack #(% to the average Israeli in tines like this, for they know it can be taken from them in an instant--all wealth is illusory. Suadi Arabia can offer $230 million dollars to rebuild Beirut (like she did a week and half ago--I wonder, why couldn't she offer a fraction of that to make the refugee camps at least towns, or decent for familes to live in? While the refugees were waiting to get their land back, why couldn't they be given at least citizenship in the surrounding Arab nations..I'm blathering here,must stop.) If the tables were turned, (as they were in the 60s and 70s) who would give money to rebuild Isreal? How would Israeli replace a massive population loss, should one ever occur, God forbid? Would oil-producing nations donate fuel to generate lectricity and power commerical traffic? Lebanaon is recieving lently of offers of help to alleviate its agony. Deservedly so. Who (even before this month) would have helped Israel?

The sad fact is, Israel will only survive as long as America remains a world power, as long as jet fuel and natural gas--both derived from petroleum--remain cheap (for its miltary use, and to fuel the aircraft that deliver the miltary hardware and the fuel that propels it, across the thousands of miles of ocean) and as long as oil remains cheap enough on the world markets that American support for Israel remains a non-threatening issue. The time will come sometime in this century when oil becomes too expensive for America to ship overseas to support other powers. Even such a nation as tiny as Israel. The day when something like Bush's honoring Israel's request for $270 million in jet fuel 3 weeks ago , or Israel's annual $3 billion in aid, becomes a domestic political issue--when the American public is aroused enough by scarce and costly oil to angrily march in the streets against, say, a shipment of oil overseas to help Israel, even in her peacetime economy--and in 50 yrs, with the way the oil markets are going, this is not a fantasy--when an American Presidential candidate is politically threatened by things like this, let's see how long we support Israel. We will have to asses slong and hard any "sentimental, Biblical" reasons for supporting her, in a eorld where natural rescources are shrinking. And speaking of that, the only thing NOT scarier aobut this conflcit is that it is being fought for old-fashioned "noble" reasons--political things. Land, prisoners, teraties. Not somethintg as simple as oil or water shortages. Not *cough* like Iraq....

The fact is, the Crusades analogy, is, in the long run, absolutely correct. If America were, say, located where Saudi Arabia was, in the long run, Israel would stand a chance to survive. But she isn't, and unless we can figure out an organic way to fuel jet planes, she is doomed one day to drown in a sea of angry Arabs with low-tech weapons (if Iran doesn't get her first.) Israel's great misfortune is that her only genuine benefactor is too geographically far away to defend her when the cheap oil runs out later on in this century and the world becomes a "distant" place again. Maybe I'm wrong. God help me, I hope I'm wrong. But Isreal is just as much a flimsy artifical construct of the modern oil economy as Saudi Arabia is. As such, she really is more fragile than she appears. STING2, you may argue about American aid being a small part of Isreal's economy etc, but that small part of American aid is for things like jet fuel and miltary hardware that (let's face it here, folks, if you have read modern Israeli history, this fact is sadly tue) that have been the most important things to Israel's survival. Other countries, these things don't matter, but this is Israel we're talking of here.

Of course, I am talking about the future--not meaning to knock all the suffering by the Lebanese etc right now. But purely from a cold-blooded POV, in the end, inspite of all the sympathy and pity I have for the Palestinians, this is the real reason why when push comes to shove..I cannot dismiss Israeli out of hand. And if she is attacked in the weakenee state she is one day doomed to be in, with America geogrpahically isolated agsin, where would her Jewish population go?
__________________
Teta040 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 09:55 PM   #143
Refugee
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,435
Local Time: 02:06 PM
Ah, Deep, but the problem is Jerusalem, which nobody seems to want to discuss openly. That's the lynchpin of the whole thing. (see my post above--the Hizbollah flag has the Dome of the Rock on it and its TV station has the al-Aqsa Mosque in its station ID logo. Not much room for compromise, is there? ) Where is the capital of the Palestinian state? No matter how close the two sides come, Jerusalem kills the whole thing.

My solution would be to have the Israeli capital in Tel Aviv, and the Palestinian one in a West Bank town, , and Jersualem an independant, "internationalized" territory like Vatican City, accessible to everyone but controlled by none of the warring groups. In my heart of hearts, if it was the only way that this eternal and damnable conflit would be stopped, I'd agree to that, even though for me Jerusalem will always be the City of David and it would be painful to give it up. But as a sensible solution like this will only happen when elephants roost in trees, Jerusalem will have to remain a Jewish city. B/c the fact is, under a Jewish govt, Moslems are not barred from Jerusalem, .but if you think Jerusalem was made the capital of a Palestinian state, (as Arafat wanted---he was offered the West bank on apletter in 2000 but refused it for thia reason) do you realistaically think that Jews would have any access at all to the place, let alone the Western Wall?
__________________
Teta040 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 10:02 PM   #144
Refugee
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,435
Local Time: 02:06 PM
Oh, crap.....speaking of the Temple Mount...check out the Drudge site.....rumors of Temple Mount Showdown on Thursday....
__________________
Teta040 is offline  
Old 08-02-2006, 10:19 PM   #145
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 02:06 PM
Wow. Plenty of stuff to sleep on, that's for sure. People leaving Israel and Jerusalem has to be a Jewish city. The Arabs claim that Jerusalem is an occupied city for this reason. I guess we won't be seeing an Israeli embassy in Riyadh or a Saudi embassy in Tel Aviv.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-03-2006, 12:58 AM   #146
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:06 AM
Quote:
At least, Hamas has stated "Palestinian state alongside Israel."

and not "a Palestinian State, where the State of Israel now exist."
They havent amended the Hamas Covenant to that effect.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-03-2006, 01:02 AM   #147
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:06 AM
Quote:
where would her Jewish population go?
Ashes and dust.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-03-2006, 01:14 AM   #148
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London/Sydney
Posts: 6,608
Local Time: 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Teta040
Oh, crap.....speaking of the Temple Mount...check out the Drudge site.....rumors of Temple Mount Showdown on Thursday....
I saw a Fosters beer ad on a billboard in the US years ago, it said "Don't worry about the world ending today, it's already tomorrow in Australia". So don't worry, we are most of the way through Thursday here, and the world has not yet ended (although I have a cracking hangover).
__________________
Earnie Shavers is offline  
Old 08-03-2006, 02:27 AM   #149
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
While there seems (to me, at an initial reading) to be a conflation of pan-Arabism and pan-Islamism, this seems to me to get at the heart of the current issues that most deeply trouble the Middle East -- it seems to me that a pan-Arabist, even in the most radical form, could be dealt with and ultimately be more receptive to a two-state solution than could a more moderate pan-Islamist, the difference between, say, Anwar Sadat and Hasan Nasrallah.
Yeah that was sloppy word choice on my part, I was trying to think of a label that would encompass all four groups I named, and the Muslim Brotherhood in particular don't fit the "pan-Islamist" label too comfortably, as they're in practice overwhelmingly focused on Arab issues, even though they're definitely also conservative-Islamist. But "pan-Arabism" was probably a poor choice to incorporate into the label as most associate that with Baathism, in theory a more "pragmatic," secular ideology (though IMO, the hosting and funding of Shiite Islamist groups like Hezbollah by Syria, really the only remaining ostensibly Baathist/pan-Arabist state, calls into question just how "pragmatic" they really are). Sadat is kind of a strange example, though?? I mean, the Arab League expelled Egypt after he made peace with Israel because they felt he'd betrayed pan-Arabism, and then Islamic Jihad assassinated him. Anyhow, pan-Arabism in the classic sense pretty much died with Nasser.

Mostly I'm just feeling frustrated that the Hezbollah situation keeps getting thrown back to the Israel/Palestine issue--it can't, or at least shouldn't, wait as long as the "road map" is (unfortunately) obviously going to take, nor is there legitimate reason for it to; Hezbollah is not in Lebanon for Palestine's sake, nor really for Lebanon's either.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 08-03-2006, 02:44 AM   #150
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London/Sydney
Posts: 6,608
Local Time: 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Hezbollah is not in Lebanon for Palestine's sake, nor really for Lebanon's either.
My argument all the way through this thread is that Israel are playing right into the terror groups hands, increasing, not diminishing, their support. You are right, this/these groups don't give a flying fuck about Palestinians, but it's handing them a cause on a platter. Then you have the US shipping bombs in for Israel to drop over the border and the story reads exactly as they want it to. They need to be sidelined, not strengthened. Taking away the cause takes away the power.

The big question is; how do Israel maintain the safety and security of it's citizens, while not handing another generation of support to the terrorists at the same time?
__________________

__________________
Earnie Shavers is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com