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Old 08-16-2006, 02:07 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Indy what is your take on the quotes from Clinton and Biden?
Both were trying to be cute, ad-libbed a line and bombed. Hillary in front of crowd, Joe was caught by the C-Span cameras.
My point is you can play GOTCHA with almost anybody speaking often enough in front of crowds or cameras. From the White Sox's Ozzie Guillen to Bush saying a 4 letter word the other week. Do we really want to get to the point where politicians only read prepared comments and talking points off cards for fear of slipping up and offending someone? I submit there's too much of that as it is and that it's keeping some of our brightest minds out of politics and government.
2004 Bush vs Kerry. The evil of two lessers George Carlin called it. Or was it Bill Maher?
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:02 AM   #92
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Originally posted by INDY500


George Allen said a stupid thing. So did Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton. But none of them are racists.
Prove me wrong.
Well I guess it depends on what YOU consider makes a racist.

And I don't buy your gotcha theory one bit. You could put me in front of a camera 24/7 and yeah you may get a cuss word out of me once in awhile that may offend some, but you would never once hear a racial slur, homophobic slur, or any other slur come out of my mouth. Because it's not part of my everyday language, the reason slurs "slip" out under your theory because this language is part of their everyday language, they just try and hide when on camera. Sometimes they fail.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:13 AM   #93
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Sanjay Puri, the leader of the nation's largest Indian political action committee and a longtime Allen supporter, said he will lead a delegation of Indian business executives and community leaders to meet with Allen on Wednesday to express dismay.

"The comments are very insensitive. That's what we want to find out: How can we continue working with him?" Puri said. "The senator has had a very good relationship with our community. I was pretty surprised -- you can say shocked."
From:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081501210.html

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Quote:
Release Date : August 15, 2006

Washington, D.C. – USINPAC leaders spoke with Senator George Allen today and expressed the deep hurt his recent remarks have created in the Indian American Community. His insensitive and offensive comments have shocked and angered Indian Americans across the Commonwealth and the country. After talking with Senator Allen today, USINPAC Chairman Sanjay Puri said, "We spoke briefly with Senator Allen on the phone today. We stressed to the Senator that the Indian American community is very upset, and frankly very angry about his statements. The Senator pledged to have a full and open in person dialog on this matter as soon as tomorrow. USINPAC considers this to be a very serious matter, and we look forward to having a frank discussion with Senator Allen."
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:19 AM   #94
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Originally posted by yolland
What did your dad think it meant? I'm curious because I've seen "macaque" used on white supremacist websites as a crude synonym for "African-American," but "macaca" I was familiar with only from Southern France (ironically, I just learned that word when I was teaching there earlier this summer). Did he think of it as a general derogatory term for nonwhite people, or as something more specific?
Yeah I never heard it either, shows how much I know. I know "macaque" because that's a monkey. I've never heard anyone use it as a racial slur, but if I did, I'm sure I'd pick up on it and be disgusted.

Seems like based on the info in this thread, he's dug himself into a rather large, racist hole....
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:22 AM   #95
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Really?

Isn't the offense defined by the hearer?

Or do we have an objective standard?


can you point me to the historical examples where "oh my god" has been used to intimidate communities of individuals?

if i were in your company and you asked me not to use that phrase, out of respect, i certainly would stop.

but to make some sort of case that the phrase should be excluded from, say, speach one hears on television -- no casual racial slurs there -- then you've got lots of work to do to make that case.

let me give you an example -- i spent a summer teaching once and had a close group of friends. one of the in-jokes became the phrase, "yeah, your mom!" it was stupid, but funny, until one of my co-workers said that it bothered her when we used that phrase because her mother was in jail for armed robbery.

seriously.

so, we stopped using that phrase in her presence out of respect for her. no problem. but, in a larger cultural context, the phrase "your mom!" is not offensive.

so it's a mixture of the two things -- objective standard vs. defined by the hearer -- that creates what is known as cultural norms/standards. there really isn't a principle here that we must demonstrate unwavering fealty to. we have to use our brains and judge each situation. the onus is on us to demonstrate reasonable sensitivity, but also on someone who might be offended by whatever phrase. you can't honest think that someone who is offended by "oh my god" isn't aware of the fact that the large majority of the population considers the phrase as little more than an empty expression, having nothing to do with her own personal notions of God.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:22 AM   #96
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Originally posted by Salome
I'm all for holding back when you are aware you will offend someone but people should also realise that not everything is meant in an offensive way
Doesn't matter. We have developed a list of words and expressions that are de facto offensive - the intent of the speaker plays no role. Say the word/phrase and it is strict liability.

Now, the question is whether we should approach speech this way and who gets to decide what is on and off the list.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:27 AM   #97
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Republicans would defend Hitler if he was in their party and wanted to lower their taxes.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:27 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Doesn't matter. We have developed a list of words and expressions that are de facto offensive - the intent of the speaker plays no role. Say the word/phrase and it is strict liability.

Now, the question is whether we should approach speech this way and who gets to decide what is on and off the list.


is it really so difficult to participate in culture? is culture not something that grows and shifts and changes and part of being aware and alert is to participate and not just make lists to trot out whenever useful?

i really don't see what's so hard about the difference between using the word "n*gger" versus "oh my god" in conversation.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:31 AM   #99
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Cute. I guess by "participation in culture" you mean holding the power to approve or disapprove what other people say (or granting them the right to be upset).

You may be comfortable with the distinction you note, because the phrase "oh my God" may not offend YOU.

It is far easier to live with arbitrary rules than guiding principles of thought.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:32 AM   #100
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Now we're getting to quality discussion.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:33 AM   #101
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Like I said earlier, he probably did not know what it meant. Hell Idid not even know the word existed until yesterday. He apologized. He is only human.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:36 AM   #102
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Originally posted by Justin24
Like I said earlier, he probably did not know what it meant. Hell Idid not even know the word existed until yesterday. He apologized. He is only human.
Do you use a lot of words that you don't know the meaning of?
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:36 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Cute. I guess by "participation in culture" you mean holding the power to approve or disapprove what other people say (or granting them the right to be upset).

You may be comfortable with the distinction you note, because the phrase "oh my God" may not offend YOU.

It is far easier to live with arbitrary rules than guiding principles of thought.

well, you're not going to get very far by taking phrases and twisting them.

no, by "participation in culture" i mean to actively participate in culture -- it was once okay to say "oriental," it no longer is, and we know this because we participate in culture. we listen, we speak, we read, we watch TV, we become aware of things. why is that such a terrible thing? because it violates some rule you have? some list you want to keep?

do you really think Dire Straights would write a song with "faggot" in the lyrics today?

"oh my god" does not offend MOST people -- it is commonly thrown around (OMG!) and can be heard everywhere. when we particpate in cluture, we know these things.

we can also ask people not to use such phrases because it offends US, and that is perfectly fine. but when you participate in culture and you are aware of the fact that you are in an extreme minority in this regard, the onus is in YOU to let others know that you are offended.

"guiding principles of thought" sounds lofty and noble, but they really don't lend themselves well to slippery, ambiguous, complex, and unstable things like culture. i know the lack of a rulebook can be discomfiting, but such is life.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:40 AM   #104
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Whether or not he "knew" what the word macaca meant disturbs me less than the "welcome to America" crack being aimed at a non-white participant.
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Old 08-16-2006, 11:59 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Yeah I never heard it either, shows how much I know. I know "macaque" because that's a monkey. I've never heard anyone use it as a racial slur, but if I did, I'm sure I'd pick up on it and be disgusted.

Seems like based on the info in this thread, he's dug himself into a rather large, racist hole....
the first time I heard that word as a racial slur was on tv, watching the sport news. That word (we say "macaco" and it means monkey too ) was used by some fans to insult the black soccer players of an european team. But comparing black people with gorillas, monkeys, etc is not an unusual insult and it really disgusting .
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