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Old 08-21-2006, 03:19 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Absent speaking with Allen about the intentions behind the remark, I (and no one else) can really speak to his intentions.
I can understand your argument from a legal standpoint

if the penalty was imprisonment or execution

then what would be the standard of proof

a better argument could be made for Andrew Young.
one could give evidence that there are store owners of the racial backgrounds he described that charge high prices to their predominately black customers.

Andrew Young admitted his remarks were not appropriate and stepped down as a spokesperson

What penalties do Young and Allen face for their bigoted remarks?

Should the standard be "beyond a reasonable? doubt"

or

"a preponderance of the evidence"

or

in the case of Young

"an admission"
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:20 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
I believe it is possible to make a racist statement and not be a racist.

I believe we all have bias' and prejudice.


and this is what i'm getting at.

there seems to be such an overreaction to the "racist" label -- as if it's the worst thing anyone could ever be called, and the intense raction to it, in my mind, belies a strong discomfort with social difference, sort of getting at Reagan notions of a "colorblind society" when, in reality, such a thing is totally naive and the work that needs to be done is to get people comfortable and fluent with different colors and with all sorts of human difference.

heck, i fully admit to having certain homophobic attitudes, and sometimes straight people call me on them. and the result is i think about what i've said, and then i learn from it, it's not that i'm always and forever a homophobe. and i think the same thing applies here. simply calling something out for being racist does not mean that one is always and forever a racist.
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:32 PM   #228
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I hear "loaded" words and phrases in conversations all the time now.

on topic:

I am comfortable calling David Dukes a racist.

Andrew Young a person that made a racist remark.

George Allen, a person who uses racist remarks now and has a pattered of doing so from time to time. Much like Rush Limbaugh.

because they are not open advocates, like Dukes, there will always be people to defend them


So Irvine,

some in here have said if one makes a racist remark they are racist

as you have made homophobic remarks
you must be a homophobe
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:43 PM   #229
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Why can't we all just get along. Why not get rid of Race (in colors) and just go by the Human Race??? That way we avoid sterotypes??
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:53 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
as you have made homophobic remarks
you must be a homophobe



you should hear me when i venture into JR's on 17th street on any given Saturday night and we all start singing along to Dolly Parton's "9 to 5" ...
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Old 08-30-2006, 04:57 PM   #231
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http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mh...s=george_allen


"Only a decade ago, as governor of Virginia, Allen personally initiated an association with the Council of Conservative Citizens, the successor organization to the segregationist White Citizens Council and among the largest white supremacist groups."
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:01 PM   #232
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In its "Statement of Principles," the CCC declares,
"We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called "affirmative action" and similar measures, to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races."
this pretty much is the Bush Administration's policies

so whats new
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:11 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mh...s=george_allen


"Only a decade ago, as governor of Virginia, Allen personally initiated an association with the Council of Conservative Citizens, the successor organization to the segregationist White Citizens Council and among the largest white supremacist groups."
He didn't know what those words meant.
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:30 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


He didn't know what those words meant.


yes. only his stated intent for being at the meaning matters, not the meeting itself.
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:31 PM   #235
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Free cookies?
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Old 08-30-2006, 06:54 PM   #236
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A new poll has Webb in the lead


I'll be seeing Webb on Labor Day along with Gov. Warner and Gov. Kaine at Congressman Bobby Scott's house...I'll let y'all know how that little shindig goes
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Old 08-30-2006, 09:37 PM   #237
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For the first time, a new poll shows Democratic candidate Jim Webb ahead in the race for U.S. Senate in Virginia.
In the Wall Street Journal Zogby poll, Webb has 47.9 percent of the vote; Republican Senator George Allen has 46.6 percent.
Allen has been sliding in the polls since he was caught on tape calling a Jim Webb volunteer of Indian descent ‘macaca,' which is defined as a type of monkey.
Allen has apologized several times since then, but the damage was apparently done. A Survey USA poll last week showed Allen's once 16-point lead dipping to 3 percentage points.
"I think it's an indication that Virginians are sort of uncomfortable or maybe slightly unhappy with Allen," said Quentin Kidd, a political science associate professer with Christopher Newport University in Newport News.
He added that while Allen has been wounded, Webb still has his work cut out for him.
"What's going to indicate to me whether Webb is going to be able to capitalize in this is whether he's able to raise money. I think his biggest weakness all along has been that he hasn't been able to raise money. And the last numbers I saw, he was below a million dollars and Allen was up seven million or so."
Webb campaign manager Jessica Vanden Berg said today, "This survey shows a ‘sharp swing’ in favor of Jim Webb, but we can't take anything for granted."
http://www.wvec.com/news/local/stori....44ab0ecc.html
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Old 08-30-2006, 09:59 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Quote:
In its "Statement of Principles," the CCC declares,
"We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called "affirmative action" and similar measures, to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races."


this pretty much is the Bush Administration's policies

so whats new
deep:

I'm not at all trying to defend this Senator Allen or his comments (which I do think were highly inappropriate), but what part of the current administrations policies do you see as being "pretty much" the same as the Council of Conservative Citizens' statement of principles?

Keep in mind that I am VERY familiar with this hate organization, as I campaigned AGAINST a Lieutenant Governor candidate in Alabama (George Wallace, Jr.) in part because he has frequently spoken at their events. Fortunately, he lost in the Republican Primary.

But as it regards President Bush, the Council of Conservative Citizens has spoken out against him much more than they have for him:

"The presence [in Congress] of even one white person with our interests foremost in his mind is simply unacceptable to the issues-obsessed conservative race traitors. Texas Governor George Bush and his brother Jeb in Florida have manifested their self-hatred by embracing Hispanics ahead of whites. Somehow we must find a way to relieve whites of their self-hatred." ("Open Letter to White People,” www.cofcc.org, 12/98)

They were also opposed to his nomination of Alberto Gonzales for being an alleged "Hispanic militant," and just this week they have spoken out against Bush and his FDA for deciding to approve the morning-after pill.

I realize that there are many, many issues where people do have legitimate complaints against the social policies of this adminstration, but I have not seen anything in its policy to indicate that this administration is opposed to "race mixing" or seeks to "preserve" the European-American heritage, whatever in the hell that is. (Personally, I don't waste any time reflecting on any of my European heritage, but perhaps President Bush is known to put on lederhosen and drive around DC in an Aston-Martin singing Christmas carols in French).

~U2Alabama
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:44 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama


deep:

I'm not at all trying to defend this Senator Allen or his comments (which I do think were highly inappropriate), but what part of the current administrations policies do you see as being "pretty much" the same as the Council of Conservative Citizens' statement of principles?


~U2Alabama
First,

thank you for more information on the CCC

they are not exactly the same

but, I do see similarities



I will cite some examples :


Quote:
"Statement of Principles," the CCC declares,
"We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind,
1. Going to Bob Jones University and embracing the man, without a comment at the time about their race policies

Quote:
to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called "affirmative action" and similar measures,

2. The Administration has weaken and attacked affirmative action many times

Quote:
to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races."

3. Bush Administration Opposes Integration Plans

The solicitor general urges the Supreme Court to scrap schools' voluntary programs that exclude some students because of their race.
By David G. Savage, Times Staff Writer
August 25, 2006

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration has urged the Supreme Court to strike down voluntary school integration programs across the nation that exclude some students because of their race.

Administration lawyers filed briefs this week in pending cases from Seattle and Louisville, Ky., on the side of white parents who are challenging "racial balancing" programs as unconstitutional.
article here


race is a huge problem in this country

you have remarked on it

the Clinton Administration had an 'Initiative on Race Relations"

the Bush Administration has pretty much turned a deaf ear
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:16 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


First,

thank you for more information on the CCC

they are not exactly the same

but, I do see similarities



I will cite some examples :




1. Going to Bob Jones University and embracing the man, without a comment at the time about their race policies
I meant to address this one and as soon as I saw your reply I realized that I had forgotten it. I do recall this incident and do not think that he should have spoken there (nor should McCain speak there, unless he uses the venue to belittle the University). I seem to recall GWB having some regret over it, but I am not sure.




Quote:
2. The Administration has weaken and attacked affirmative action many times
In certain areas and situations, I think it should be the ultimate goal of society as a whole and government in particular to be able to phase out legitimate remedies such as affirmative action. And I do acknowledge that this will always be open for debate, but I think both sides should agree that the goals of fulfillment of racial equality should correspond with affirmative action some day being unnecessary.




Quote:
3. Bush Administration Opposes Integration Plans

The solicitor general urges the Supreme Court to scrap schools' voluntary programs that exclude some students because of their race.
By David G. Savage, Times Staff Writer
August 25, 2006

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration has urged the Supreme Court to strike down voluntary school integration programs across the nation that exclude some students because of their race.

Administration lawyers filed briefs this week in pending cases from Seattle and Louisville, Ky., on the side of white parents who are challenging "racial balancing" programs as unconstitutional.
Here you have cases where the parents of white students feel that their children are being denied admission to certain quality schools because of their race when those parents do not feel that voluntary, non-zoned integration is necessary in their communities. Since this is not the practice across the country in every school district, I think they may have a point (not saying that I agree with them) when it comes to federally-funded schools' admissions policies. The solicitor general makes a valid point here:

Quote:
Clement argued that the government, including public schools, may use "race-based measures" only to "eliminate the vestiges of past discrimination."

Since neither Seattle nor Louisville defend their policies as a remedy for past discrimination, they may not use "race-based assignments" simply to achieve integration, he said.
Are they doing it to remedy past histories of discrimination, or to achieve diversity? Why shouldn't the rejected students get to attend those schools?

And I think the soliciotor general's participation in these two cases is a far cry from "opposing integration plans" in general, just a voluntary plan that some students' parents do not think is just.

Quote:
race is a huge problem in this country

you have remarked on it

the Clinton Administration had an 'Initiative on Race Relations"

the Bush Administration has pretty much turned a deaf ear
This administration has not focused as much on race relations as the Clinton administration may have with campaigns and mottos; I don't deny that. But the policies of this administration is not "pretty much" as follows:

Quote:
"We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called "affirmative action" and similar measures, to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races."
and that is exactly what you said.

~U2Alabama
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