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Justin24

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Israel Versus the Rest of the Middle East

Seems things are really heating up now. Two more Soldiers have been Kidnapped and 7 Soldiers have been killed.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/737634.html

On top of that Israel is begining an offensive against Lebanon, which killed the 7 soldiers and have two soldiers as POW's.
 
Will this be a long drown out war, where countless lives will be lost. Israel could have negotiated the release of the POW.
 
Justin24 said:
Will this be a long drown out war, where countless lives will be lost. Israel could have negotiated the release of the POW.

Israel has played this game before. This is why Hamas and Hezbollah played this card again.

Israel's military is actually vastly superior to that of its neighbors. It is ultimately a matter of restraint that prevents Israel from steamrolling over the entire region. For all the tough talk between Israel and Syria, for instance, Syria is incapable of adequately defending itself against Israel.

Unfortunately, I do think that while Israel is justified in doing what it does, it also contributes to the problem that continues the fanaticism. That is, these governments are effectively so weak as to be incapable of taking care of the basic needs of its peoples. As such, "faith-based" terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas come in and fill the void--in exchange, of course, for undying devotion to their cause. Destroying Lebanon's infrastructure completely would likely breed more terrorism, but, at the same time, Lebanon has done nothing to stop Hezbollah's terrorist activities.

Eventually, it becomes a balancing act, and Israel has certainly sat back and taken plenty of abuse over the last few years.

Melon
 
I agree. You just always hope that the decision makers know where the line is, and the people in their ear know it as well.
 
melon said:


Israel has played this game before. This is why Hamas and Hezbollah played this card again.

Israel's military is actually vastly superior to that of its neighbors. It is ultimately a matter of restraint that prevents Israel from steamrolling over the entire region. For all the tough talk between Israel and Syria, for instance, Syria is incapable of adequately defending itself against Israel.

Unfortunately, I do think that while Israel is justified in doing what it does, it also contributes to the problem that continues the fanaticism. That is, these governments are effectively so weak as to be incapable of taking care of the basic needs of its peoples. As such, "faith-based" terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas come in and fill the void--in exchange, of course, for undying devotion to their cause. Destroying Lebanon's infrastructure completely would likely breed more terrorism, but, at the same time, Lebanon has done nothing to stop Hezbollah's terrorist activities.

Eventually, it becomes a balancing act, and Israel has certainly sat back and taken plenty of abuse over the last few years.

Melon

Thank you for that Melon.

Its very strange to wake up one morning and find your country at war - even though its been a long time coming. We've been attacked by Hizbollah too many times and the time has come for us to say enough is enough!

I know that there are many who consider us the aggressors and, like Justin said, it is us versus the entire Middle East - this is really not true.
Every single action Israel has taken has been in direct response to aggression against us. Whether its Quassam rockets fired into our cities or midnight raids against our soldiers or suicide bombers killing women and children - we NEVER strike first.

Regardless of how you feel about our actions, whether for or against, I'm sure you'll all join my hopes that this will end quickly and with minimum losses for both sides.

Peace!!!



+++++

For further clarification, here is some background on our current campaigns.

(from the Yahoo website):

13.7.06


BEIRUT, Lebanon - Israel intensified its attacks against Lebanon on Thursday, blasting Beirut's international airport and the southern part of the country in its heaviest air campaign against its neighbor in 24 years. Nearly three dozen civilians were killed, officials said.

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The strikes on the airport, which damaged three runways, came hours before Israel also imposed a naval blockade on Lebanon to cut off supply routes to Lebanese militants.

The shockwaves from the fighting began to be felt a day after Hezbollah snatched two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid. The escalation of violence in the Middle East pushed crude oil prices to a new intraday record of $75.88 a barrel. Western countries, Russia and the United Nations called for restraint and demanded the soldiers be released.

Israel said it was seeking to end once and for all Hezbollah's presence on Lebanon's southern border, while the guerrillas insisted they would only release the soldiers in exchange for Israel freeing Arab prisoners.

The airport, located in the Hezbollah-controlled southern suburbs of Beirut, was closed after the attacks and flights were diverted to nearby Cyprus. It was the first time since Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon and occupation of Beirut that the airport was hit by Israel.

Israel also fired a missile at the building housing the studios of Hezbollah's Al-Manar TV in the southern suburbs of Beirut on Thursday morning, the channel's press officer Ibrahim Farhat told The Associated Press. One person was hurt, but the station continued to broadcast.

Overnight Israeli attacks in southern Lebanon, meanwhile, killed 35 civilians and wounded dozens more, Lebanese security officials said. A family of 10 and another family of seven were killed in their homes in the village of Dweir near Nabatiyeh, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to speak to the press.

Later Thursday, Lebanese guerrillas fired volleys of rockets at northern Israel, killing an Israeli woman in her home in the border town of Nahariya, officials said. Five people were wounded. Thousands of civilians spent Wednesday night in underground shelters.

Eight Israeli soldiers and three Lebanese were killed in fighting Wednesday.

Air force Maj. Gen. Amir Eshel said the campaign was likely Israel's largest ever in Lebanon, measured in number of targets hit in one night and the complexity of the strikes. The last major military offensive against Lebanon was in 1996 when about 150 Lebanese civilians were killed.

On Wednesday, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called the Hezbollah raid an "act of war" by Lebanon and threatened "very, very, very painful" retaliation. The Cabinet, meeting in the wake of the military's highest daily death toll in four years, decided to continue the army operation and call on the international community to disarm Hezbollah, according to participants.

On Thursday, Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said the offensive in Lebanon has far-reaching objectives, including pushing Hezbollah militants away from the Israeli border and eventually sidelining the group altogether.

"We must neutralize the hostile terrorist infrastructure that exists in Lebanon," he said.

Senior Israeli military officials said Israel warned the Lebanese government that it plans to strike offices and homes of Hezbollah leaders in the southern suburbs of Beirut.

Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz also demanded that Lebanese army forces be deployed along the border, saying Israel would not allow Hezbollah guerrillas to reoccupy its positions there. Lebanon has long refused to do this, saying that it is not in business of protecting Israel's northern border.

The Lebanese government said Wednesday that it had not known of the Hezbollah operation, did not condone it and bore no responsibility for it. The Lebanese Cabinet, which includes two Hezbollah ministers, urged the U.N. Security Council to intervene.

Hezbollah's brazen cross-border raid Wednesday opened a second front for the Israeli army. The army launched an incursion into the Gaza Strip more than two weeks ago to search for another Israeli soldier who was captured by Hamas-linked militants.

At least 23 Palestinians were killed in Gaza on Wednesday. And an Israeli airstrike early Thursday destroyed the building housing the Hamas-controlled Palestinian Foreign Ministry.

Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah on Wednesday offered to trade the two captured Israeli soldiers for Arab prisoners, and warned Israel that his guerrillas would fight if attacked. The group says it has over 10,000 rockets and has in the past struck northern Israeli communities in retaliation for attacks against Lebanese civilians.

The attack on the airport occurred shortly after 6 a.m. Thursday. Warplanes struck three runways, leaving a large crater and seven smaller holes, airport officials said. Two flights approaching the airport were diverted to Larnaca airport on Cyprus.

The main terminal building of the $500-million airport, which was built in the late 1990s, remained intact.

The Israeli military confirmed it had struck the airport, saying the facility is "a central hub for the transfer of weapons and supplies to the Hezbollah terrorist organization."

In its overnight attacks, Israeli aircraft and artillery targeted roads and bridges, as well as Hezbollah positions and houses of guerrilla members and leaders. A bridge on the main highway between Beirut and southern Lebanon was hit by big bombs that left huge craters, blocking traffic.

Airstrikes also hit deep inside eastern Lebanon, striking a civic center attached to a Shiite Muslim mosque near the town of Baalbek, as well as a transmission antenna for Al-Manar, witnesses reported. The group's broadcasts stopped in the area.

Israeli jets also blasted the Khardali Bridge on the Litani River, 10 miles north of the Lebanese-Israeli border, witnesses said.

Hezbollah TV reported that guerrillas has fired Katyusha rockets at the Israeli border town of Kiryat Shmona and targeted an airstrip in the upper Galilee panhandle. Another barrage of rockets targeted Nahariya near the coast.

Nahariya Mayor Jackie Sabag said the whole town had been shut down and residents were urged to stay in underground shelters. Patients at the town's hospital were moved to rooms on lower floors.

The Israeli army said several rockets had landed more than 12 miles south of the border, showing that Hezbollah has managed to extend its missiles' range.

Israel and Lebanon have a history of conflict, punctuated by a full-scale Israeli invasion in 1982, and its 18-year occupation of a buffer zone in southern Lebanon that was intended to prevent attacks on Israel.
 
Broad Support For Terrorism?

Active and passive support creates this major player.

The Nation of Hezbollah

BEIRUT — As Lebanon's largest political party and most potent armed force, Hezbollah has long been described as a "state within a state" — a Shiite Muslim minigovernment boasting close ties to Iran and Syria.

But Wednesday's move across the border to capture two Israeli soldiers went a step further: Hezbollah acted as the state itself, threatening to drag Lebanon into a war.

The country's elected government was still in meetings Wednesday, arguing over what to say in public, when Hezbollah chief Sheik Hassan Nasrallah went before television cameras with a pointed threat for the ruling elite.

"Today is a time for solidarity and cooperation, and we can have discussions later. I warn you against committing any error. This is a national responsibility," the cleric said, looking every inch the head of state.

Any criticism over the capture of the two Israeli soldiers would be tantamount to colluding with Israel, Nasrallah said, making it clear that he expected citizens and officials to heed his orders.

"To the Lebanese people, both officials and non-officials, nobody should behave in a way that encourages the enemy to attack Lebanon, and nobody should say anything that gives cover to attack Lebanon," he said.

Nasrallah was careful to frame the raid — which occurred less than three weeks after Palestinian militant groups, including the Hamas military wing, captured an Israeli soldier in a similar cross-border attack just outside the Gaza Strip — as a noble strike on behalf of Lebanon and Arab nationalism. Its goal was to free Lebanese and other Arab prisoners, many of them Palestinian, held in Israel by forcing Israel into a prisoner swap, he said.

Nasrallah was unclear on how many prisoners he was demanding be released.

Since Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah has generally limited its attacks on Israelis to one small patch of disputed land known as Shabaa Farms, which Hezbollah claims as Lebanese territory.

But Hezbollah had long planned the audacious change to a cross-border raid aimed at capturing Israeli soldiers. The group failed in a similar operation late last year.

Ten Thousand Katyusha rockets sit in Southern Lebanon, point at indescriminate targets in Israel. The Beruit government is reaping what it has sowed.
 
Regardless of how I feel about the politics, which leans against Israel's military tactics, all I know is that I have Palestinian friends, Israeli friends, and Lebanese friends, and right now there is one particular Israeli soldier that I am concerned about. :(
 
JMScoopy said:
GO ISRAEL!!! :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

they put up with enough shit, i support 'em 100%.

While I am not as enthusiastic - I agree with the basic premise. A nation has a right to defend itself.

AchtungBono - thanks for the information you posted!
 
JMScoopy said:
GO ISRAEL!!! :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

they put up with enough shit, i support 'em 100%.

C'mon, JM, the report AchtungBono reprinted said up to three dozen civilians were killed. Let's show some restraint in your enthusiasm.

I don't understand why Israel is taking it out on Lebanon as a country. Everyone knows the Lebanese gov't is fairly powerless to do anything about Hezbollah. Maybe the Iranians or Syrians have some pull, or Israel needs to go into Lebanon again and fight Hezbollah face-to-face...but bombing Beirut won't do much but embolden all the terrorist groups who will use the civilian casualties caused by Israel's bombing as further propaganda that Israel is the aggressor.
 
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Judah said:


I don't understand why Israel is taking it out on Lebanon as a country. Everyone knows the Lebanese gov't is fairly powerless to do anything about Hezbollah.

Which I gather is why they are attacking Lebanon. Their goal according to AB's post is to get Hezbollah away from their border and "sideline" them. Lebanon's gov. can't do it, so Israel is going in and taking care of it themselves.
 
maycocksean said:


Which I gather is why they are attacking Lebanon. Their goal according to AB's post is to get Hezbollah away from their border and "sideline" them. Lebanon's gov. can't do it, so Israel is going in and taking care of it themselves.

Except that they're attacking Beirut as well - not just the borderlands.
 
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The death toll in Gaza, for those not paying attention, is 43+ Palestinians, including over a dozen under the age of eighteen, such as the 6 year old girl killed when the IDF attacked a school on Friday/Saturday. Oh, and one Israeli soldier, suspected of being sniped at by his own side, and hence a victim of 'friendly fire.'

This is a humanitarian crisis, a human rights violation of staggering proportions. It was inevitable, and in fact predicted by many in the region last week, that Hizbollah would seek to either attack or kidnap soldiers from Northern Israel or the Golan Heights region in an attempt to forge solidarity with the Gazans and to divert Israeli military might from the strip.

The questions now stand: how many different regions of Arab communities can Israel assault simultaneously while still claiming to be acting in self-defense, and how long will the EU and America stand idly by while Israel continues to enact ethnic cleansing on the people whose land they stole?
 
financeguy said:
whose land they stole?

Isn't the land Israel is currently based on land that "God"gave to his chosen people. Does this mean that Jews should wander the earth as Nomads?
 
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, financeguy. But the whole "land stealing" thing is a little much. It's LAND. It doesn't BELONG to anyone. It belongs to EVERYONE. I just don't understand why they can't just split the damn thing up.

And on the topic of land stealing, didn't we steal land from Native Americans?
 
sadly, it appears as if "vs. the Rest of the Middle East" is quite accurate. and who is in ever increasing control of the Middle East?

Iran:


[q]So there is considerable speculation among Israelis and Palestinians about whether Hezbollah and Mr. Meshal, and through him the Hamas military wing, coordinated the manner and timing of the raid to capture the corporal or whether, ultimately, the decision was Iran’s.

An Arab intelligence officer working in a country neighboring Israel said it appeared that Iran — through Hezbollah — had given support to Mr. Meshal to stage the seizure of Corporal Shalit. The officer said the Shalit case, even before the capture of two more Israeli soldiers, amounted to Hezbollah and Iran sending a message: “If you want to hurt us, there are tools that we have and that we can use against you.”

Israeli intelligence officers and analysts say they believe that the message is primarily Iran’s, acting through Hezbollah and Mr. Meshal.

Itamar Rabinovich, former Israeli ambassador to Washington and chief negotiator with Syria on a peace treaty that never quite materialized, sees Iran “on a roll, looking for regional hegemony.” Even without nuclear weapons, Iran is acquiring considerable influence in Lebanon, in Syria and with the Palestinians, not to speak of Iraq.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/world/middleeast/13assess.html?pagewanted=print

[/q]


meanwhile, the current Iraqi government is in crisis:

[q]In Tuesday's most deadly attack, two pedestrians wearing vests made of explosives blew themselves up near a restaurant outside the walls of the Green Zone, within a few hundred yards of three busy entrances, Iraqi and American officials said. Soon after the initial blasts, a hidden bomb was detonated nearby, adding to the carnage, the American military said. Some Iraqi authorities said the third explosion was caused by a car bomb.

At least 15 Iraqi civilians and an Iraqi police officer were killed in the explosions, and 4 people were wounded....

In a predominantly Sunni area of Dawra, a district in southern Baghdad, gunmen ambushed a bus carrying Shiite mourners from the holy city of Najaf, where they had buried a relative, government officials and family members said. The gunmen pulled 10 people from the bus and executed them, the Interior Ministry official said.

An hour earlier, in Taji, north of Baghdad, gunmen ambushed another bus, killing one person and wounding five, the official said.

Two mortar grenades hit a Shiite mosque in Dawra, killing 9 and wounding 11 civilians, the Interior Ministry official said.

In other violence, a family of five--a father, mother, grown daughter and two teenage sons--were found beheaded in a predominantly Sunni sector of Dawra, according to an official at Yarmouk Hospital, the main medical facility in western Baghdad.

The police and hospital officials also reported that four car bombs around Baghdad killed at least 7 people and wounded at least 18.

Gunmen raided a company's offices in the upper-middle-class Mansour neighborhood, killing three employees and wounding three, officials said.

According to the official at Yarmouk Hospital, five bodies were discovered early Tuesday in Jihad, the neighborhood where dozens of people were reportedly executed by marauding gunmen on Sunday. It was unclear when the victims had been killed.

In Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's hometown, a time bomb exploded in the clinic of Ameera al-Rubaie, the wife of the governor of Salahuddin Province, according to Agence France-Presse, which quoted the local police. Dr. Rubaie, a gynecologist, was killed and four of her patients were wounded, the police said, according to the wire service.

In Baquba, north of Baghdad, the mayor of the Um Al Nawa district was assassinated by gunmen, the ministry official said. In the Shiite holy city of Karbala, a drive-by shooting killed two workers in the central market, according to the Interior Ministry official.

An engineer and his bodyguard were assassinated on their way to work in Kirkuk on Tuesday morning, according to Col. Adel Zain Alabdin of the Iraqi police. A car bomb in Mosul killed two people and wounded four, the police said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/world/middleeast/12iraq.html?pagewanted=print

[/q]


but everything's just fine, of course. we should simply ignore how Iran has successfully infiltrated and now controls a large chunk of Iraq. such success has emboldened the mullahs not only to charge ahead in acquiring nuclear weapons, but also to attack Israel via Hezbollah:

[q]Israel has information that Hizbullah guerrillas who captured two Israeli soldiers are trying to transfer them to Iran, Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said.

Regev did not disclose the source of his information.

The IDF released the names of the two soldiers on Thursday. According to the IDF Spokesperson, the two reserve are Ehud Goldwasser, 31, from Nahariya, and Eldad Regev, 26, from Kiryat Motzkin.

Hizbullah guerrillas, who are backed by Iran, seized the soldiers Wednesday in a cross-border raid.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885988710&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

[/q]



it's going to be 111 degrees in Baghdad all week. and 130,000 American soldiers are caught in the middle of everything, a war that was always a regional conflict.

for all the talk about what a regional menace Saddam was, it now appears as if Iran and Syria are just as dangerous to the region, if not worse.
 
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Yes we did. I would go further as to the west part of the USA but we have covered that many times and it always turned ugly.
 
Justin24 said:


Isn't the land Israel is currently based on land that "God"gave to his chosen people. Does this mean that Jews should wander the earth as Nomads?

I'm refering specifically to the occupied territories, not the wider geographical entity of Israel.
 
financeguy said:


I'm refering specifically to the occupied territories, not the wider geographical entity of Israel.

Ok, then I would agree.
 
financeguy said:
how long will the EU and America stand idly by while Israel continues to enact ethnic cleansing on the people whose land they stole?

I agree with you. Unfortunately, though, with midterm elections coming up here in the US, the US will continue to support Israel.
 
Justin24 said:
Why does everyone hate Israel

The reality is that Israel exists and SHOULD continue to exist. What it should also do is act as the democracy it declares itself to be. Democracies don't invade other countries because a soldier has been kidnapped. Democracies don't exact collective responsibility on entire populations for the actions of a minority. Israel does as it pleases and then says f**k off to international opinion when international opinion criticizes any of its actions.

And yes, Israel suffers terrible terrorist threats but those threats will not be lessened or tackled by acting as it does which incites more volunteers to sign up to the same terrorist organisations.
 
I do not hate Israel. I disagree with the government's military tactics. As I mentioned in another thread, I have Israeli friends and Palestinian friends and my feelings about the politics have nothing to do with how I feel about the people.
 
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