nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Irvine511 said:did you read and then think about that article before you posted it?
More than this reply
Irvine511 said:did you read and then think about that article before you posted it?
nbcrusader said:If you care to add substance, please do.
Otherwise, stop trying to do the Robert Conrad battery commercial routine.
nbcrusader said:Who's "justifying" dead Lebonese?
I've questioned the victimization of the Lebonese by Hezbollah.
If there was a time for "bravado" - why is it focused on the Jews now instead of the free run by Hezbollah?
deep said:
To take an action that will knowingly kill civilians is a war crime.
nbcrusader said:
If there was a time for "bravado" - why is it focused on the Jews now instead of the free run by Hezbollah?
STING2 said:
You could then make the claim that every US military action, from George Washington's shelling of Boston in early 1776, Yorktown in 1781, to the Allied D-Day landing which killed 20,000 French Civilians, to the invasion and removal of Taliban and Al Quada forces in Afghanistan were "war crimes", because in each case, although civilians were not the target, it was known that accidental loss of civilian life would be impossible to avoid.
Its a war crime to target civilians as Hezbollah and Humas do. The IDF does not target innocent civilians, they target terrorist organizations who do everything they can to position themselves near civilians in the hopes that Israely strikes against them will also hurt innocent civilians which they and others can then use as a political weapon against Israel. Its not in Israels interest for there to be large numbers of innocent civilian casualties. They do everything they possibly can to reduce the numbers of innocent civilians that are killed or hurt. Hezbollah and Humas in contrast do everything they can to maximize the number of innocent civilians killed or hurt on both sides.
maycocksean said:
To be frank, the Lebanese gov. can't stop the Israeli army from operating within it's borders either.
Of course, they'll fight back, talk tough, of course they'll "show resolve"--there is a difference between rising up to defend your own country and rising up to defend another (particularly one that invaded and occupied your country for 18 years). People--and gov--are more inclined to do the former than the latter.
Furthermore, the only way that Lebanon would be able to "fight back" if Israel were to roll into Lebanon would be guerrilla warfare. Hezbollah, already being guerrillas, are much harder to "defeat" by the organized government (of either Lebanon or Israel).
nbcrusader said:Interesting, I haven't been painting this situation as one of pure anti-Semitism. I am curious as to why this is a subject that should be avoided.
I guess some may think very highly of their posts if the situation "has been explained to me" as some sort of absolute, unquestionable fact. I don't know if you expect others to simply acquiescence to statements just because they were made. Though, I’ve seen plenty of that expectation by others in different threads.
nbcrusader said:Who's "justifying" dead Lebonese?
I've questioned the victimization of the Lebonese by Hezbollah.
If there was a time for "bravado" - why is it focused on the Jews now instead of the free run by Hezbollah?
nbcrusader said:I appreciate the thoughts and opinions expressed here. I find some of the sentiments coming from Lebanon contradictory. Perhaps there is silent cheering for Israel that Hezbollah is being removed. According to accounts from the region, Hezbollah's military capacity has been reduced by 50%. Perhaps at some point they will have the confidence to help finish off Hezbollah.
nbcrusader said:
Lebanon has a regular, uniformed army. I agree if they wanted any chance of success in a fight with Israel, they would have to abandon this in favor of guerrilla warfare.
Has Lebanon been "invaded" by Hezbollah? We essentially hear both "Yes" and "No". Hezbollah holds some seats in the government. They build schools and other public works. But we also hear that the people of Lebanon do not want Hezbollah. Instead of just writing off the silence as something they could not speak out against, we can question it - especially in light of vocal public challenges against Israel (who is getting rid of their Hezbollah problem).
Judah said:I'd like to hear what you guys think is the out here for both sides. What'll it take to settle it? Is there a pragmatic or political middle ground?
Assuming Israel isn't seriously thinking that they won't stop the military action until Hezbollah is completely disbanded, Israel's "out" will need to be a solution that shows they got their kidnapped soldiers back unconditionally.
But Hezbollah will need to show they got something in return. The freeing up of some (20? 100? 1,000?) women and children from Israeli prisoners, or something.
And these kinds of non-agreed-upon positions are usually done through third parties and in an "unlinked" manner. Meaning that yes Hezbollah returns the Israeli soldiers, and then in a completely unrelated (of course) process, Israel frees up some prisoners, perhaps at a later date. Those are all the roll-out politics of these things. And we've seen them before between the Israelis and Palestinians.
Where do you all stand on a resolution to this crisis? nb, sting, do you see unconditional Hezbollah surrender as the only path? irvine, a-wanderer?
[I just can't believe that innocent people are dying when there are political solutions available...solutions that we all know will be employed at some time in this crises; unfortunately, "timing" also becomes a strategy...gotta have a war first...show we're all very serious...then after everybody's pretty scared and violenced out, then we can sit at a third-party table. I find this kind of approach quiet horrific.]
Judah said:I'd like to hear what you guys think is the out here for both sides. What'll it take to settle it? Is there a pragmatic or political middle ground?
Assuming Israel isn't seriously thinking that they won't stop the military action until Hezbollah is completely disbanded, Israel's "out" will need to be a solution that shows they got their kidnapped soldiers back unconditionally.
But Hezbollah will need to show they got something in return. The freeing up of some (20? 100? 1,000?) women and children from Israeli prisoners, or something.
And these kinds of non-agreed-upon positions are usually done through third parties and in an "unlinked" manner. Meaning that yes Hezbollah returns the Israeli soldiers, and then in a completely unrelated (of course) process, Israel frees up some prisoners, perhaps at a later date. Those are all the roll-out politics of these things. And we've seen them before between the Israelis and Palestinians.
Where do you all stand on a resolution to this crisis? nb, sting, do you see unconditional Hezbollah surrender as the only path? irvine, a-wanderer?
[I just can't believe that innocent people are dying when there are political solutions available...solutions that we all know will be employed at some time in this crises; unfortunately, "timing" also becomes a strategy...gotta have a war first...show we're all very serious...then after everybody's pretty scared and violenced out, then we can sit at a third-party table. I find this kind of approach quite horrific.]
trevster2k said:How considerate of the Israeli military to warn 500,000 Lebanese to leave if you don't want to get killed. Don't worry about the damaged roads, odd missile or airstrike raining down from above, not to mention finding a mode of transportation or being able to afford to leave, just leave. How considerate, I guess this makes it ok if civilians die, they were warned.
STING2 said:
The Hezbollah rocket threat to northern Israel must be ended or at least heavily contained to end the state of siege that Hezbollah has put 2 million Israelies under.
Zoomerang96 said:what israel really needs to be congratulated on, is their obvious long-term vision for their current acts.
cause these excessive and brutal attacks on lebanon will only kill the insurgents, and any child or young person who saw first hand how his family was killed and his home destroyed by war planes will never want to become a suicide agent in the future.
this is a sure-fire way to deal with future violence. i'd like to extend my hand to israel for the way they've decided to deal with this situation... because we all know war and destruction is the most intelligent and final response.
i expect the mid-east to be fully settled within two weeks... furthermore, i expect a long-term peace agreement to be ratified and adhered to by all member states of the area, and for it to last several decades.
Judah said:
Agree with most of that, but defeating Hezbollah is the tricky part. If most Hezbollah fighters retreat into Beirut, how does Israel intend to defeat them? Bomb the city into oblivion or go in there and fight street to street, which is what Hezbollah is likely wishing for...a looong-term Fallujah/Baghdad kinda fight? You can see Hamas fighters joining Hezbollah, and then an "Al-Qaeda in Lebanon" branch springing up, Islamists pouring in from surrounding Arab countries to join the fight. If it's a long fight, the U.S. will need to support Israel, possibly with military resources (probably not troops, but equipment), and then you have the U.S. basically involved on three fronts in the mid-east.
Not to be alarmist, but i can see this becoming an expanding cluster-f@#% (well, i guess it is already).
British attack Israeli tactics in Lebanon
BRIAN BRADY WESTMINSTER EDITOR
THE British government issued a fierce condemnation of Israel's bombing campaign in Lebanon last night as world leaders desperately sought a last-minute deal to avert a ground war.
As Israeli tanks massed on the border and troops made sporadic raids on Lebanese villages, Foreign Office minister Kim Howells
claimed Israel was not inflicting "surgical strikes" but waging war on "the entire Lebanese nation".
His outburst appeared to shift the British position, which has so far been to support Israel's action while cautioning restraint.
The furious round of international diplomacy, in the shadow of a return to full-scale war in the Middle East, came in advance of a visit to the region by American Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today and an international "peace conference" in Italy on Wednesday.
But Howells, who was in Beirut overseeing the evacuation of thousands of Britons and who will travel to Israel today, gave a dramatic signal that many senior government figures are in despair over the failure to bring a halt to the fighting.
"I very much hope that the Americans understand what's happening to Lebanon," he said. "The destruction of the infrastructure, the death of so many children and so many people. These have not been surgical strikes.
"And it's very, very difficult, I think, to understand the kind of military tactics that have been used.
"You know, if they're chasing Hezbollah, then go for Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation."
deep said:
STING2 said:
The reason that Israel has survived for the past 58 years surounded by enemies has been because they have been willing to use military force early and as often as need be to insure their security and survival. They have one of the highest standards of living in the world despite the threats they face, while their neighbors live in poverty due largely to an obsession with conquering Israel.
Israel has indeed had a long term vision and they have successfully made it work for 60 years despite all the odds against them. Its brought them prosperity and a way of life that is found in most first world countries. U2 brought POPMART to Israel, they did not bring it to any of Israels neighbors.
What is the longterm vision of the Palestinians, Hezbollah, Lebanonese people, Syrians for the region? What have all the attacks and invasions of Israel accomplished over the past 58 years for THEM? What have all the suicide bombers accomplished over the past 58 years? Is there an independent Palestinian State as a result of these actions?
Israel has one of the top 20 standards of living in the world. Lebanon, Syria, The Palestinian Occupied Territories, Iran, all rank near or around #100 in standard of living. After 58 years, why haven't people in these countries developed a long term vision that does not involve destroying Israel but rather improving the lives of their families and communities? Invading Israel or launching suicide bombers into Israel is not the path to peace and greater prosperity. Its not the path to an independent Palestinian State.
Israel has what it wants and will do everything in its power to protect it. Hezbollah and Humas can spend another 60 years with their supporters doing what they did during the last 60 years and it will only make things worse for their people. Where is their non-violent movement? After 60 years of failure using only violence, would it hurt if they actually tried to have a non-violent movement to address their concerns? Where is their longterm vision and goals? Israel has already accomplished theirs and simply does what it can to protect and insure they continue to live and enjoy the prosperity they have despite the attacks on them.