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Old 07-16-2006, 07:36 AM   #106
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem


It's nice and diplomatic that this is said from both parties. Yet, here you guys are.

Is this the only way to reach a resolution, you think?
Unfortunately Angela the answer is YES in this case, because we're dealing with forces who negate the existance of Israel in ANY way shape or form. They are committed to our destruction and refuse any solution that won't involve our total annihilation.

At least Egypt, Jordan and the PLO (at some point) realized that they would accomplish more by talking to us than by fighting with us - and they did.

As I stated in my above post, we are always looking for peaceful solutions with our neighbours - providing of course they WANT to and they're willing to lay down their arms and accept our existance. This will never happen with the Hizbollah or Hamas.
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:10 AM   #107
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Well maybe you can read this site, which is quite simplified but does set out some of the biggest incidents between israeli and palestinians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...flict_timeline

here are just some things that israelis have done ( i copy and pasted hehe)

The Qibya (also spelt Kibya, Qibieh or Qibye) Massacre (also known as "Qibya Raid" or "Qibya Operation") was carried out in October 1953 by Israeli troops in a West Bank village.

The operation at Qibya was carried out by two Israeli units: a paratroop company and Unit 101, a special forces unit of the IDF that conducted retaliatory raids against Arab marauders. Unit 101 was founded by and commanded by Ariel Sharon. The Qibya raid led to the deaths of over 60 Palestinian Arabs and the demolition of most houses in Qibya, a village in the western West Bank, which was then under Jordanian control. Many Qibya residents evacuated, but some stayed, hiding in their homes. On October 18, 1953, the U.S. State Department issued a bulletin denouncing the Qibya raid, demanding that those responsible be "brought to account."


October 29, 1956

Israel invades Egypt's Sinai Peninsula in secret alliance with France and Britain. The Kafr Qasim massacre took place on the same day.

June 1967

The Six-Day War. Israel launches what it describes as a pre-emptive strike against the Egyptian Air Force on suspicion that Egypt and Syria are planning to invade. Israel defeats the combined forces of Egypt, Syria and Jordan and captures the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip from Egypt, East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

March 31, 2002

Israeli troops exchange gunfire with guards of Yasir Arafat in Ramallah. In the past 18 months, according to the Associated Press, 1262 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and on 401 on the Israeli side; in March, 259 Palestinians and 130 Israelis were killed.

Look, i dont want this to turn into a 'who's does the worst damage' because both sides have done atrocious things, but I just think you need to realise that Israel is as much of the problem as trying to be answered!

But my main point is, so many innocent people are going to be killed if things progress and thats something i definately don't want! PEace be with you.
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:20 AM   #108
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Well maybe you can read this site, which is quite simplified but does set out some of the biggest incidents between israeli and palestinians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...flict_timeline

here are just some things that israelis have done ( i copy and pasted hehe)

The Qibya (also spelt Kibya, Qibieh or Qibye) Massacre (also known as "Qibya Raid" or "Qibya Operation") was carried out in October 1953 by Israeli troops in a West Bank village.

The operation at Qibya was carried out by two Israeli units: a paratroop company and Unit 101, a special forces unit of the IDF that conducted retaliatory raids against Arab marauders. Unit 101 was founded by and commanded by Ariel Sharon. The Qibya raid led to the deaths of over 60 Palestinian Arabs and the demolition of most houses in Qibya, a village in the western West Bank, which was then under Jordanian control. Many Qibya residents evacuated, but some stayed, hiding in their homes. On October 18, 1953, the U.S. State Department issued a bulletin denouncing the Qibya raid, demanding that those responsible be "brought to account."


October 29, 1956

Israel invades Egypt's Sinai Peninsula in secret alliance with France and Britain. The Kafr Qasim massacre took place on the same day.

June 1967

The Six-Day War. Israel launches what it describes as a pre-emptive strike against the Egyptian Air Force on suspicion that Egypt and Syria are planning to invade. Israel defeats the combined forces of Egypt, Syria and Jordan and captures the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip from Egypt, East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

March 31, 2002

Israeli troops exchange gunfire with guards of Yasir Arafat in Ramallah. In the past 18 months, according to the Associated Press, 1262 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and on 401 on the Israeli side; in March, 259 Palestinians and 130 Israelis were killed.

Look, i dont want this to turn into a 'who's does the worst damage' because both sides have done atrocious things, but I just think you need to realise that Israel is as much of the problem as trying to be answered!

But my main point is, so many innocent people are going to be killed if things progress and thats something i definately don't want! PEace be with you.
Thank you for that link Amy - I will definitely check it out.

And the reason we're "as much of the problem" as you say, is because we're STILL HERE.....much to the displeasure of our enemies ("those darn Jews! just can't get RID of them!!!")

This conflict would be solved so easily if we just packed up and left and settled in some obscure island in the pacific ocean......but guess what? that ain't gonna happen!

I know that you and the other members of this board all want the same thing I do - a swift and peaceful end to this conflict. One can only hope that it will happen in our lifetime.

Peace be with you too!!
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Old 07-16-2006, 10:49 AM   #109
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I would like to think that Israel's actions will lead to an end in attacks by Hezbelloh. I would like to think that this is actually directed specifically at Hezbelloh. I would like to think that this is a reasonable response to the kidnapping of 3 soldiers, after all, Hezbelloh stepped in after Israel's initial response against Hamas after the first kidnapping. Now, we have over a hundred civilians dead on both sides, an Israeli gunship obliterated a bus killing women and children which will be used for years to come by Hezbelloh as fuel for its' fire, Hezbelloh is hitting regions deeper in Israel with missiles suspected to be provided by Iran, and it may stop but it will never end. It's like two siblings fighting over who started it, except deadlier. Yes, right now Hezbelloh is tossing missiles into Israel, but they will argue Israel bombed Lebanon first, but Israel will respond that they kidnapped 2 of our soldiers, but Israel attacked the Palestinians but Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier, but Israel and dadadada. Where does the argument end, frankly, when everyone is dead.

When this present affair is over,the only thing which will have changed is that there will be more dead people to add to the tally for both sides, infrastructure which could take months or years to repair could harm living conditions for citizens of the region and Hezbelloh and Hamas will attack Israel again sometime in the future. Nothing will change for the better, ceasefires in that region are temporary at best.
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Old 07-16-2006, 01:03 PM   #110
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ils/index.html

People feedback on CNN. I wish people would listen to the first person.
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Old 07-16-2006, 01:12 PM   #111
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:12 PM   #112
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Originally posted by Justin24
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ils/index.html

People feedback on CNN. I wish people would listen to the first person.
Reading those letters is heartbreaking.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:32 PM   #113
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:25 PM   #114
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Originally posted by trevster2k
I agree U2fan, this whole thing could get out of hand very quickly. I know it's 2006 but the leaders of the world are just as triggerhappy as they were back in 1914 and 1939. This could escalate especially if the US actively supports Israel during this conflict while at the same time Russia and other nations decide to support the other side. One thing leads to another,and who knows where this could lead? Gilad Shalit could be the Archduke Ferdinand of WWIII. I find it odd how the Israeli response to the kidnapping of a single soldier dwarfs their past responses to suicide bombings which killed non-military women, and children, kind of upsetting really. I guess it's a change in policy which will just lead to more and more conflict in the future.

Remember back on the eve of the new millenium when the whole world was all lovey dovey for a few hours and everyone was so hopeful about the new millenium. Well, the wheels fell of that pretty quick.
I think the situation is far from being that serious, plus Russia these days is far to weak to play a serious military role beyond the former Soviet Union which was indeed the case during the Kosovo conflict. In addition Russia's interest these days in regards to terrorism is much more in line with European, American and Israely interest. The Russians continue to fight Islamic terrorism in their own country. The Chechens(those in the terrorist resistence), Hezbollah, Humas, Al Quada all of ties, even if they are small, indirect ones.

I think Israel is responding to more than just the kidnapping of its soldiers, but to destroy threats to its security before they materialize. Israel is in a very vulnerable situation geographically, and cannot afford the build of a terrorist organization on any of its borders. If Lebanon cannot take care of the situation and Syria won't do anything, then Israel has no choice by to move in to remove threats to its security. Israel may have to re-occupy southern Lebanon to insure the security of its northern population.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:36 PM   #115
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Originally posted by financeguy


When Palestinian terrorists blow up buses in places such as Tel Aviv, killing as many as a dozen people at a time, I view it as an immoral act. I don't put that forward as some kind of new and higher moral insight on my part - practically any sane person will accept that bombing a bus and killing a dozen or two of its passengers is evil.

Or will they?

It turns out that the Israel government and its advocates regularly justify actions such as blowing up buses as 'self defense', 'a proportionate response', etc.

Today Israeli airstrikes blew up a bus, killing as many as 15 or 18 Lebanese civilians, depending on reports.

The great moral error of the Israeli government is its proposition that all acts carried out to allegedly defend the Israeli state are in and of themselves moral. The rest of the world is supposed to agree to that questionable proposition and to waive any other moral considerations.

Tragically, the US does buy into this questionable morality, sends an endless supply of weaponry to the Israeli state, and shields it diplomatically at the UN and elsewhere. Others, such as the spineless EU, remain silent in the face of current atrocities.

I cannot credit your statement that actions of terror-supporting governments (or indeed 'governments', in the case of Hamas) are greated by silence, as we have had numerous threads on here dealing with Hamas, the Iranian regime, Syria, etc.

As for the view that merely pointing rockets at a state is, in and of itself, an act of war, this is the strangest definition of an act of war I have ever heard. For many years, the US and the Soviet Union had rockets pointing at each other - no-one seriously argued that either side was committing an act of war against the other.
There is a huge difference between what Palestinian terrorist do and what the Israely Defense Force does. The IDF attempts to target terrorist engaged or supporting acts of terrorism. The Palestinian terrorist often do not target the IDF, they target innocent civilians. The Bus the Israely's hit was a mistake. The Bus a Palestinian terrorist hit was the target. That is the key difference.

Its shocking to see so many Europeans refuse to support Israel to the degree that the United States does considering what Europeans did to Jews in the 1930s and 1940s. Israel is a small state surrounded by enemies that have fought several wars to wipe the country from the map. No European country in Israel's situation would stand for what Israel has to put up with. Yet, their policies toward Israel are borderline hostile. Israel understands the cost of not insuring its security, to many Europeans have forgotten the cost of what it means to fail to insure ones security.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:00 PM   #116
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy


This i very much agree with. It is true that Hezbelloh need to be stopped, but by completely going over the top, bombing the shit out of a city where Hezbollah arn't there is not doing ANYTHING but provoking people who otherwise wouldn't really get all hepped up over it. Obviously there is so much hatred between the isrealis and their neighbours, but COME ON. There has been bad blood between the jews and the arabs for centuries. Then after World War 2, who's GREAT idea was it to go in an annex arab land and give it back to the jews. I mean, how arrogant can someone be to go live in a place that would be the WORST place on earth to move back too. And then for the Arabs to see how much support the "west" or specifically the states give to the israelis ad their army, would further incite and fuel the already high level of hatred between the extremist groups of both parties. It's a very sad scary situation.

But i think we need to step back and look at the big picture. Saying things like 'Israel can steam over the other countries' and 'when this is over Hexbollah will be no more' etc, this is talking about HUMAN LIVES. Do you think if the shit hits the fan and Israel goes into bat with their nukes and "superior" army against Lebanon, Syria and Iran that only soldiers and people willing to die for the fight are going to die? No. The fact is thousands of innocent people will die, purely because they are deadlocked between two factions who are too blinded by rightiousness and hatred to see anything objectively. Already too many civilians have died from both sides, and although i am helpless to offer another way of getting through this mess (the UN obviously can't do a damn thing!) it saddens me to think of men women and children who will die in the name of WHAT? because of this.

I don't think this mess is ever going to sort itself out.
Hezbollah are all over Lebanon as well as places in Syria. They are not restricted to one area and the IDF is not going to waste military resources to go after area's where Hezbollah is not present. Israel does have some luke warm allies in Lebanon and they are not out to cause unnecessary harm to the country. Israel would prefer a strong and stable Lebanon, but it has no choice but to defend itself from elements that the government in Lebanon cannot control.

There have been Jews living in Israel/Palestine constantly for the past several thousand years, although often in very small numbers. In the late 1800s, many Jews began to move back to the region and were allowed to by the Ottoman Empire which had controlled the region for the past 400 years at that point. It was Ottoman land, and if they allowed Jews to settle on it, that was their right. When the Ottoman Empire collapsed at the end of World War I, every national group on the territory of the Ottoman Empire had a right to form their own independent state if they chose to, and that is what the Jews in Israel/Palestine chose to do, although they did not become and independent state until 1948.

The United Nations worked out a partition plan, but the Arabs rejected it. The Palestinians would have received half of the land of present day Israel. It was an excellant plan, but the Palestianians and Arabs rejected. When Israel declared its independence, the UN recognized it, while 5 Arab countries suddenly invaded Israel attempting to wipe it off the face of the map. This Arab aggression was defeated and it only made the situation of the Palestinians worse. Over the next 60 years, the Palestinians and several Arab countries would attempt in several wars and attacks to destroy Israel. Terrorism was adopted as a way of life. There has never been a peace movement among Palestinians to achieve and independent state despite the fact that their violent actions continue to fail and worsen the situation of the Palestinians.


The loss of any civilian life is terrible, but failing to insure ones security is a sure way to create an a terrible situation for civilians. It was certainly a sad fact that 20,000 French civilians were killed during the first few days of the Normandy invasion, but no one in France, Europe or America questions the need for that invasion to defeat Germany in World War II.

Israel is always going to do what it needs to, to insure its survival and security. Its time that Palestinian and Arab countries find an alternative to terrorism in order to get what they want. Terrorism and attacks on Israel have achieved nothing for them over the past 60 years, except to make the situation of Palestinians worse. Israel is a democracy and is indeed suceptible to a non-violent movement in the way that dictatorships are not. I think its time that the Palestians and Arabs tried it. The Palestinians would greatly help their cause of statehood if they helped to insure Israel's security instead of attacking it.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:14 PM   #117
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There is a huge difference between what Palestinian terrorist do and what the Israely Defense Force does. The IDF attempts to target terrorist engaged or supporting acts of terrorism. The Palestinian terrorist often do not target the IDF, they target innocent civilians. The Bus the Israely's hit was a mistake. The Bus a Palestinian terrorist hit was the target. That is the key difference.



Quote:
Unmanned drone hits Israeli ship

Last Update: 7/14/2006 9:13:12 PM


JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel says one of its warships was hit by an unmanned aircraft rigged with explosives.

A military official says it was sent up by militants in Lebanon, aimed at the ship which was off the coast of that country. Israel isn't saying anything about the condition of the ship, or about a report that four of its sailors are missing.

The drone was apparently developed by Hezbollah, putting yet another weapon at its disposal. At least twice in recent years the militants have flown unmanned drones over northern Israel, an area they spent much of the day blasting with rocket fire. One of those rockets hit a house, killing a woman and her grandson.

So this is good news?

Let's hope they have more drone attack planes so they can kill Israeli military, only.

We don't need any more suicide bombers killing themselves and innocent patrons in Pizzerias.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:21 PM   #118
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So this is good news?

Let's hope they have more drone attack planes so they can kill Israeli military, only.

We don't need any more suicide bombers killing themselves and innocent patrons in Pizzerias.
The Palestinians and Hezbollah TRY to inflict mass casualties on the Israely population. A new more accurate weapon system would simply help them in achieving that particular goal as well as hitting Israely forces. But the primary target of these terrorist groups is not the IDF, but the Israely civilians.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:30 PM   #119
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The Palestinians and Hezbollah TRY to inflict mass casualties on the Israely population. A new more accurate weapon system would simply help them in achieving that particular goal as well as hitting Israely forces. But the primary target of these terrorist groups is not the IDF, but the Israely civilians.
So if they get enough of these drone planes and can hit strategic targets, Israeli military in particular, their actions will be more palatable?

What country was founded on terror?

Quote:
King David Hotel bombing (July 22, 1946) was a bombing attack against the British government of Palestine by members of Irgun —a militant Zionist group. The Irgun exploded a bomb at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which had been the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police). 91 people were killed, most of them civilians: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 other. Around 45 people were injured.

The attack was initially ordered by David Ben Gurion, who was in the United States. Both Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin, head of the Irgun, would later become Israeli Prime Ministers. The attack was commanded by Yosef Avni and Yisrael Levi.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:45 PM   #120
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Originally posted by deep


So if they get enough of these drone planes are can hit strategic targets, Israli military in particular, their actions will be more palatable.

What country was fouded on terror?

They already have the ability to hit IDF forces in many area's, but choose to TARGET CIVILIANS! The technical capability of their weapons is irrelevant since their actions and the targets they choose are primarily civilian. In any event, their actions of hitting Israel, whether it be its military or its civilian population is totally unjustified.


As for your other question, it depends on what you define as being terror. From your position, you could argue that Ireland was founded on Terror.

The target of most palestinian attacks are innocent civilians. What was the target of the "David Ben Gurion" attack on July 22, 1946?
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