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Old 07-14-2006, 12:32 PM   #61
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Originally posted by AliEnvy


Perhaps because at stake is the UN deal regarding nuclear development in Iran...this is Israel sending a strong message to the UN (and US) that they will not take kindly to concessions in Iran's favour.

Am I the only one here on that wavelength? lol
Maybe. There can be little doubt of the damage done by the steady decline in the diplomatic climate between Israel and Iran (if there ever was one) of the last few months and the extreme statements by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
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Old 07-14-2006, 12:32 PM   #62
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I think it will all come down to Iran in the end, of all this.
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Old 07-14-2006, 12:42 PM   #63
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So would you still say Israel's response is over the top or are they actually responding to much more than a couple of kidnapped soldiers and subsequent rocket bombs...
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Old 07-14-2006, 12:57 PM   #64
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Israel's response is pretty over the top.
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Old 07-14-2006, 01:11 PM   #65
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Originally posted by STING2
The fact that several dozen people died throughout Iraq on Tuesday does not show that the Iraqi government is in crises. The Iraqi government rather has successfully formed despite all the claims that Iraq was in or would soon be in a full blown civil war.

STING, it's far more than several dozen people dying on a random Tuesday (which was sort of the culmination of a particularly wrenching 4 days of continuous violence) and the fact that a government that can't even provide a basic level of security to it's citizens isn't much of a government at all. over 100 people have been killed during the past 96 hours despite the fact that [i]50,000]/i] troops were moved into Baghdad last month. iraq is pretty much anarchy at this point and the only thing holding it together are the 130,000 US troops.

more to consider:

[q]West Baghdad is no stranger to bombings and killings, but in the past few days all restraint has vanished in an orgy of ethnic cleansing.

Shia gunmen are seeking to drive out the once-dominant Sunni minority and the Sunnis are forming neighbourhood posses to retaliate. Mosques are being attacked. Scores of innocent civilians have been killed, their bodies left lying in the streets.

Hundreds — Sunni and Shia — are abandoning their homes. My driver said all his neighbours had now fled, their abandoned houses bullet-pocked and locked up. On a nearby mosque, competing Sunni and Shiite graffiti had been scrawled on the walls.

A senior nurse at Yarmouk hospital on the fringes of west Baghdad’s war zone said that he was close to being overwhelmed. “On Tuesday we received 35 bodies in one day, 16 from Al-Furat district alone. All of them were killed execution-style,” he said. “I thought it was the end of the city. I packed my bags at once and got ready to leave because they could storm the hospital at any moment.”

In just 24 hours before noon yesterday, as parliament convened for another emergency session, 87 bodies were brought to Baghdad city morgue, 63 of them unidentified. Since Sunday’s massacre in Jihad, more than 160 people have been killed, making a total of at least 1,600 since Iraq’s Government of national unity came to power six weeks ago. Another 2,500 have been wounded.

In early June, Nouri al-Maliki, the new Prime Minister, flooded Baghdad’s streets with tens of thousands of soldiers and police in an effort to restore order to the capital.

More recently, he announced a national reconciliation plan, which promised an amnesty to Sunni insurgents and the disbandment of Shia militias. Both initiatives are now in tatters.

“The country is sliding fast towards civil war,” Ali Adib, a Shia MP, told the Iraqi parliament this week. “Security has deteriorated in a serious and unprecedented way,” said Saadi Barzanji, a Kurdish MP.

Mr al-Maliki told parliament: “We all have a last chance to reconcile and agree among each other on avoiding conflict and blood. If we fail, God knows what the fate of Iraq will be.”

Joseph Biden, the senior Democrat on the US Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee, described Baghdad after a recent visit as a city in the throes of “nascent civil war”.

Most Iraqis believe that it is already here. “There is a campaign to eradicate all Sunnis from Baghdad,” said Sheikh Omar al-Jebouri, of the Iraqi Islamic Party, a Sunni parliamentary group. He said that it was organised by the Shia-dominated Interior Ministry and its police special commandos, with Shia militias, and aimed to destroy Mr al-Maliki’s plans to rebuild Iraq’s security forces along national, rather than sectarian, lines.

Ahmed Abu Mustafa, a resident of the Sunni district of Amariyah in western Baghdad, was stunned to see two police car pick-ups speed up to his local mosque with cars full of gunmen on Tuesday evening and open fire on it with their government-issued machineguns.

Immediately, Sunni gunmen materialised from side streets and a battle started. “I’d heard about this happening but this was the first time I’d seen police shooting at a mosque,” he said. “I was amazed by how quickly the local gunmen deployed. I ran for my life.”

Yesterday, General George Casey, the most senior US commander in Iraq, said that the US might deploy more American troops in Baghdad. He said that al-Qaeda, to show that it was still relevant, had stepped up its attacks in Baghdad following the killing last month of its leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. “What we are seeing now as a counter to that is death squads, primarily from Shia extremist groups, that are retaliating against civilians.”

A local journalist told me bitterly this week that Iraqis find it ironic that Saddam Hussein is on trial for killing 148 people 24 years ago, while militias loyal to political parties now in government kill that many people every few days. But it is not an irony that anyone here has time to laugh about. They are too busy packing their bags and wondering how they can get out alive.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...8585_2,00.html

[/q]


but keep fiddling as Iran slowly takes over.
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Old 07-14-2006, 01:13 PM   #66
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Originally posted by verte76
Israel's response is pretty over the top.
I guess I can't accept as coincidence that the kidnappings happened the day after Iran and EU stalemated again on the nuclear deal talks. Expectations in the West were that the deal would be final before the G8 conference and Iran has been saying they won't respond until August.
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Old 07-14-2006, 01:15 PM   #67
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I don't think there over the top. After all the bombings and harrassment they go through.
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Old 07-14-2006, 01:24 PM   #68
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‘Extreme overreaction’ characterises pretty much everyone who has a part in the conflict. Is the attack on Lebanon solely caused by the kidnapping incident? Of course not. Was the kidnapping of the two soldiers only an attempt at obtaining the release of Palestinian prisoners? Of course not. If I knew what to do about it I would run for the post of world dictator. I suppose a start would be to stop using military force as though it offers a real solution.
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:14 PM   #69
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Originally posted by Irvine511



STING, it's far more than several dozen people dying on a random Tuesday (which was sort of the culmination of a particularly wrenching 4 days of continuous violence) and the fact that a government that can't even provide a basic level of security to it's citizens isn't much of a government at all. over 100 people have been killed during the past 96 hours despite the fact that [i]50,000]/i] troops were moved into Baghdad last month. iraq is pretty much anarchy at this point and the only thing holding it together are the 130,000 US troops.

more to consider:

[q]West Baghdad is no stranger to bombings and killings, but in the past few days all restraint has vanished in an orgy of ethnic cleansing.

Shia gunmen are seeking to drive out the once-dominant Sunni minority and the Sunnis are forming neighbourhood posses to retaliate. Mosques are being attacked. Scores of innocent civilians have been killed, their bodies left lying in the streets.

Hundreds — Sunni and Shia — are abandoning their homes. My driver said all his neighbours had now fled, their abandoned houses bullet-pocked and locked up. On a nearby mosque, competing Sunni and Shiite graffiti had been scrawled on the walls.

A senior nurse at Yarmouk hospital on the fringes of west Baghdad’s war zone said that he was close to being overwhelmed. “On Tuesday we received 35 bodies in one day, 16 from Al-Furat district alone. All of them were killed execution-style,” he said. “I thought it was the end of the city. I packed my bags at once and got ready to leave because they could storm the hospital at any moment.”

In just 24 hours before noon yesterday, as parliament convened for another emergency session, 87 bodies were brought to Baghdad city morgue, 63 of them unidentified. Since Sunday’s massacre in Jihad, more than 160 people have been killed, making a total of at least 1,600 since Iraq’s Government of national unity came to power six weeks ago. Another 2,500 have been wounded.

In early June, Nouri al-Maliki, the new Prime Minister, flooded Baghdad’s streets with tens of thousands of soldiers and police in an effort to restore order to the capital.

More recently, he announced a national reconciliation plan, which promised an amnesty to Sunni insurgents and the disbandment of Shia militias. Both initiatives are now in tatters.

“The country is sliding fast towards civil war,” Ali Adib, a Shia MP, told the Iraqi parliament this week. “Security has deteriorated in a serious and unprecedented way,” said Saadi Barzanji, a Kurdish MP.

Mr al-Maliki told parliament: “We all have a last chance to reconcile and agree among each other on avoiding conflict and blood. If we fail, God knows what the fate of Iraq will be.”

Joseph Biden, the senior Democrat on the US Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee, described Baghdad after a recent visit as a city in the throes of “nascent civil war”.

Most Iraqis believe that it is already here. “There is a campaign to eradicate all Sunnis from Baghdad,” said Sheikh Omar al-Jebouri, of the Iraqi Islamic Party, a Sunni parliamentary group. He said that it was organised by the Shia-dominated Interior Ministry and its police special commandos, with Shia militias, and aimed to destroy Mr al-Maliki’s plans to rebuild Iraq’s security forces along national, rather than sectarian, lines.

Ahmed Abu Mustafa, a resident of the Sunni district of Amariyah in western Baghdad, was stunned to see two police car pick-ups speed up to his local mosque with cars full of gunmen on Tuesday evening and open fire on it with their government-issued machineguns.

Immediately, Sunni gunmen materialised from side streets and a battle started. “I’d heard about this happening but this was the first time I’d seen police shooting at a mosque,” he said. “I was amazed by how quickly the local gunmen deployed. I ran for my life.”

Yesterday, General George Casey, the most senior US commander in Iraq, said that the US might deploy more American troops in Baghdad. He said that al-Qaeda, to show that it was still relevant, had stepped up its attacks in Baghdad following the killing last month of its leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. “What we are seeing now as a counter to that is death squads, primarily from Shia extremist groups, that are retaliating against civilians.”

A local journalist told me bitterly this week that Iraqis find it ironic that Saddam Hussein is on trial for killing 148 people 24 years ago, while militias loyal to political parties now in government kill that many people every few days. But it is not an irony that anyone here has time to laugh about. They are too busy packing their bags and wondering how they can get out alive.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...8585_2,00.html

[/q]


but keep fiddling as Iran slowly takes over.

The article states that 1,600 people have been killed in the last 6 weeks. Thats only 3 dozen people per day. In Bosnia, an average of 300 people were killed every day in a country thats one sixth the size of Iraq. Bosnia is an example of anarchy and civil war, Iraq is not! The US Military which has experience in both environments has clearly stated that Iraq is not in a state of Civil War. For it to be a civil war, you would have to have the government disband and see a massive jump in violence, at least 10 times of what it is now. Right now, the violence, in terms of civilians being killed, is no different than it was 6 months ago, a year ago, or two years ago. Bombings, shootings, and other types of random violence have been happening since 2003. Its just that since the February Mosque bombing, every time there is violence, its now labled as being sectarian in nature with little or no evidence.

I suppose you would say that the British government was not much of a government at all given its inability to stop the violence in Northern Ireland in the 1970s? Is the United States government not much of a government because 10,000 people were murdered in the country last year? Iraq has a lot of problems, but it is steadily making key progress in many area's that will eventually over time be able to slow and manage this type of violence, especially when the Iraqi military and police force is finally rebuilt. But this is a process that will take years, and once those security services are in place, it could take decades to end all the violence as we saw in Northern Ireland. But Iraq is gradually moving toward a capability to be able to handle these problems on its own. If your criteria for a stable government is the absense of any violence, no government on the planet meets that standard. It takes years to manage and resolve these problems and declaring that a situation is in total anarchy because 100 people died over 4 days in a city of 5 million people is absurd, especially when the level of violence is not significantly different from any given time period over the past 3 years.


A strong Iran would be able to send military units into Iraq and take and control actual territory. They can't do this. Their not strong enough. They have to act indirectly and attempt to influence things indirectly, just as they are doing against Israel, and totally unlike what Saddam was able to do when he was in power. Its true that Iran has a greater ability to influence events inside Iraq than when Saddam was in power, but that in no way changes the necessity of removing Saddam from power.
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:29 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
but keep fiddling as Iran slowly takes over.
I think Israel is making it clear that fiddling by the US and others is no longer an option.

Unless this mess is contained quickly, next on the Israeli agenda could be air raids taking out Iran's nuclear facilities.

How convenient!
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:44 PM   #71
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Friday July 14, 7:36 PM

Vatican condemns Israel for attacks on Lebanon

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican on Friday strongly deplored Israel's strikes on Lebanon, saying they were "an attack" on a sovereign and free nation.
Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Angelo Sodano said Pope Benedict and his aides were very worried that the developments in the Middle East risked degenerating into "a conflict with international repercussions."

"In particular, the Holy See deplores right now the attack on Lebanon, a free and sovereign nation, and assures its closeness to these people who already have suffered so much to defend their independence," he told Vatican Radio.
Vatican gets it right.
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Old 07-14-2006, 05:06 PM   #72
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The article states that 1,600 people have been killed in the last 6 weeks. Thats only 3 dozen people per day. In Bosnia, an average of 300 people were killed every day in a country thats one sixth the size of Iraq. Bosnia is an example of anarchy and civil war, Iraq is not! The US Military which has experience in both environments has clearly stated that Iraq is not in a state of Civil War. For it to be a civil war, you would have to have the government disband and see a massive jump in violence, at least 10 times of what it is now. Right now, the violence, in terms of civilians being killed, is no different than it was 6 months ago, a year ago, or two years ago. Bombings, shootings, and other types of random violence have been happening since 2003. Its just that since the February Mosque bombing, every time there is violence, its now labled as being sectarian in nature with little or no evidence.


i'll say it once more: the only reason Iraq is not *yet* Bosnia is because of US Troops on the ground in Iraq. basically, you're saying that because Iraq does not yet have the body count of Bosnia -- which was the worst example of European bloodshed since WW2, quite a high standard -- then everything is just dandy. a functioning government does not have 50 people die in the capital on a random Tuesday. if the government were as wonderful as you think it is, then when will Maliki deem it necessary to suppress the violence? he won't because he can't!

many Iraqi MPs think they are in a Civil War. Maliki has said that Iraq is pretty much on it's last legs: "If it fails, I don't know what the destiny of Iraq will be." and Colin Powell thinks we are in a Civil War:

[q]In between panels, I ran into Colin Powell and asked him if we are ever going to get out of Iraq. "We are," he told me, "but we're not going to leave behind anything we like because we are in the middle of a civil war."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ariann...n_b_24599.html

[/q]

and since we all know you believe everything that Powell says, then it must be so.

[q]Bombings, shootings, and other types of random violence have been happening since 2003. Its just that since the February Mosque bombing, every time there is violence, its now labled as being sectarian in nature with little or no evidence[/q]


oh, for goodness sake, NO ONE BELIEVES this anymore.

[q]The U.S. commander in Iraq, General George Casey, said Sunni militants in al Qaeda were stoking the sectarian violence that pits majority Shi'ites against the once-dominant Sunni minority.

"What we are seeing now as a counter to that are death squads, primarily from Shi'ite extremist groups that are retaliating against civilians," he told reporters.

"So you have both sides now attacking civilians. And that is what has caused the recent spike in violence here in Baghdad."

U.S. commanders have often been careful not to label gunmen as Shi'ites, although many of the recent attacks in Baghdad neighborhoods have been blamed by Sunnis and police on the Mehdi army militia controlled by Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

Sadr and his followers vigorously deny the accusations.

BIGGEST CHALLENGE

U.S. envoy Zalmay Khalilzad said sectarian violence was now the main challenge to the security forces, overtaking the three- -year-old Sunni insurgency as the biggest source of instability.

"A year ago, terrorism and the insurgency against the coalition and the Iraqi security forces were the principal sources of instability," Khalilzad said on Tuesday. "Violent sectarianism is now the main challenge."

As a result, the U.S. military is adapting its tactics to focus more on containing the sectarian violence, but Rumsfeld cautioned that the "solution is not military."

[/q]


your comparison to murders in the US is laughable -- the US has 300 million people, Iraq 25 million, and please tell me the last time we had a suicide bombing in the US. please tell me the last time we 100 people were killed in, say, Los Angeles (a city far larger than Baghdad) over 96 hours.

it's not the absence of violence that makes a government effective, it's the government's ability to create a civil society that guarantees a basic level of security to it's citizens, a society where the middle class does not flee because they fear violence. the United States has this. Northern Ireland, even in the 1970s, had this.

Iraq does not.
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Old 07-14-2006, 05:47 PM   #73
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Regarding punishing the Lebanese or Palesitinians for "allowing" terrorism, what are we gonna do, take away their tents? These people are already in a desperate position which is probably half the reason they are so willing to use extreme measures to attack Israel.
Beirut is far from a "tent" city of desperate people. The Lebanese have consistently refused to police the portion of their country bordering Israel, which Syria likes to think of as "Southern Syria". Whether the Lebanese are "allowing" terrorism or simply powerless to control it, I don't know. But if they do not control the situation , I cannot begrudge the Israelis from taking care of the situation themselves.
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Old 07-14-2006, 07:14 PM   #74
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I, for one, do not believe Israel is acting out of proportion. This is not about a single abduction. This is about a successful abduction (Hezbollah tried this before), and a free lance military group engaging in a persistent terror campaign (over 700 rockets have been fired into Israel).

Lebanon, which was making great strides at rebuilding the “Paris of the Middle East” did not have the collective determination of its people to prevent Hezbollah from operating within its borders. In doing so, Lebanon is a willing participant to the continual attacks on Israel. If this angers the people of Lebanon – their anger should have been directed at Hezbollah long ago. I guess they made their choice when they voted Hezbollah into office.

To compound this tragedy, Iran can continue to fund Hezbollah to threaten Israel indirectly. While the world condemns Israel’s response to an active, persistent threat, Iran can continue to develop its own programs.

Are we seeing the next attempt at the “final solution”? The region is polarized. I think we are underestimating the resolve the non-Jewish states have in their desire to eliminate Israel.
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Old 07-14-2006, 07:21 PM   #75
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Are we seeing the next attempt at the “final solution”? The region is polarized. I think we are underestimating the resolve the non-Jewish states have in their desire to eliminate Israel.
I think this is crossing the line of good discourse. ‘Endlösung der Judenfrage’ is hardly an apt analogy.
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