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Old 07-27-2006, 07:37 PM   #466
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the rub with democracy is that you don't always get what you want or what the country and/or the region might need.

Ah, therein lies the implicit danger, the risk of this thing called democracy. We'd all prefer it if only the right kinds of people voted for the "right kinds" of policy. (See voting thread started by nbc).
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Old 07-27-2006, 07:43 PM   #467
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The most potent comment I have read this week comes from a NYT editorial in which a seasoned ME diplomat spoke to a Jordanian official very recently. The official said: "Democracy is like toilet paper to these people [terrorist groups]. You use it once and then you throw it away.'"

As to what do I think of all this? I havbe been a faithful lurker for three weeks, my head is spinning..but as I write LONG posts, I will have it soon....

Personally, I'm beginning to think it would have been better for subsequent humanity if Hagar had done a "Loreena Bobbit" job on Father Abraham, Sarah should have sued him for divorce, and the old Patriarch should have gone back to Ur in Mesopotamia and took over his dad's old shop downtown and went back to the job he had as a kid: selling clay idols.....I wonder if God ever regrets His decision to get personally involved in any way in the affairs of His creation.....
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Old 07-27-2006, 07:56 PM   #468
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Originally posted by Justin24
Western Media and Arab media have never shown such things as you described.
Switch off Fox News.
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Old 07-27-2006, 07:58 PM   #469
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Oh..PS STING: It's, um, "Israeli", not "Isrealy"....just a gentle reminder..learn to spell....lol
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Old 07-27-2006, 08:46 PM   #470
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Originally posted by maycocksean
The issue is this: is Israeli taking on Lebanon as a whole the best way for them to deal with Hezbollah. Israel seems to think so. I'm not so sure.
Neither am I.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:24 PM   #471
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You have to remember that among Arabs, traditionally, he who achieves prowess in battle and wins military victories is the most esteemed as a leader. In their culture, they are revered. The reason why Hizbollah has managed to get as polular as it has been before this started, was only because they were the first force since 1948 that got Israel to back down in a military campaign. They did what Nasser could not. And behind all the polite diplomatic and cultured statements made from Egyptian, etc leaders, etc, REMEMBER THAT. NONE of them is going to be contrubting to the weakening of Hizbollah after this. To the contrary, their eyes are being openend. They will "fight" Iran in public but from now on, if Israel is the one who blinks on this, you can damn well bet that they'll be passing bills under the table to keep these folks in business. They are THE ultimate answer to the destruction of the Jewish state....perhaps even nmore so than the birthrate.

This is a phsycological fight in that regard or the warring parties on that front as well...there is much more at stake here than last time in 82, or 78.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:45 PM   #472
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Originally posted by maycocksean
The issue is this: is Israeli taking on Lebanon as a whole the best way for them to deal with Hezbollah. Israel seems to think so. I'm not so sure.
Is Israel really "taking on Lebanon" at all? It appears that they are targeting Hezbollah where ever they exist in Lebanon. I don't believe they have engaged the Lebanon military in any way.

Re-establishing the buffer zone would be an incomplete mission, as Hezbollah would continue to operate, train, plan and attack from outside the buffer zone.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:54 PM   #473
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Is Israel really "taking on Lebanon" at all? It appears that they are targeting Hezbollah where ever they exist in Lebanon. I don't believe they have engaged the Lebanon military in any way.

Re-establishing the buffer zone would be an incomplete mission, as Hezbollah would continue to operate, train, plan and attack from outside the buffer zone.
First a caveat. I've been traveling and so haven't followed the new closely so I may be misinformed on some of the most recent events.

But, bombing infrastructure, roads, bridges, airport. Sending troops, uninvited, into another sovereign country. Yeah, I think that's taking on the country as a whole. If they haven't yet engaged the Lebanese military, they probably will as the Lebanese gov. is not happy about what's happening and has even said (as posted here in this thread) that they will "fight back."

And your second paragraph actually supports my contention that indeed Israel finds it most practical to just engage in conventional warfare and engage the country as a whole.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:57 PM   #474
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Originally posted by nbcrusader

Is Israel really "taking on Lebanon" at all? It appears that they are targeting Hezbollah where ever they exist in Lebanon. I don't believe they have engaged the Lebanon military in any way.
I don't think they've 'engaged' the military in the sense of actually fighting them, but they have attacked military bases. I would also call destroying plenty of civilian infrustructure a direct attack on Lebanon, not just Hezbollah. They've been knocking out power, water, communication and transport that effects far more than just Hezbollah.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:15 PM   #475
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Originally posted by STING2
Read up on what the IDF accomplished in its wars fighting Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and other Arab countries at the same time, and you won't be surprised at all by what Israel can do from a military standpoint went it puts the full weight of its forces into the operation. Israel may only have a population of 6,000,000, but upon full mobilization of its reserves, Israel can deploy a military force of over 600,000 troops using some of the most advanced weapons in the world.
I have no doubts about that whatsoever. However, Iraq has demonstrated the effectiveness of a strong insurgency against the biggest badass military of them all.

Hezbollah was bound to take their shot at it as well and I'm sure Israel was waiting and prepared for even the slightest provocation.

If they have underestimated Hezbollah's capabilities the way the US underestimated Iraq...and so far that seems very possible...then we are headed down a long, very ugly road.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:36 PM   #476
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Originally posted by STING2
I see the bigger picture, but Israel is concerned about the immediate safety of its citizens. Their going after rockets that are being fired right now as we speak into their cities.

Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon has only made Hezbollah stronger. The rocket threat must be ended, Hezbollah weakened from a military standpoint, and a buffer zone established before one can even think of addressing the longer term issues through negotiations and the deployment of UN or NATO troops.
The buffer zone is a great idea...but so was ousting Saddam Hussein.

If that can be accomplished without a prolonged occupation and strong insurgency, that is absolutely ideal. But my feeling is that Hezbollah is deliberately sucking Israel futher into a web at its own timing and choosing.




Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Al-Zawahiri has more video's than U2, but that does not change the fact that his organization has been unable to strike the soil of its declared enemy for 5 years, has been unable to do anything about the destruction and removal of its headquarters in Afghanistan or the detention of many of its key leaders. All talk, and no action. Its not the first time Al-Zawahiri has made such statements.
Unable or unwilling? Another big attack by al-Qaida on the west right now (particularly the US) would just create solidarity. Right now the divide and conquer approach is working pretty well for them so they're not going to randomly mess with it. Look beneath the rhetoric.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:47 PM   #477
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NONE of them is going to be contrubting to the weakening of Hizbollah after this. To the contrary, their eyes are being openend. They will "fight" Iran in public but from now on, if Israel is the one who blinks on this, you can damn well bet that they'll be passing bills under the table to keep these folks in business. They are THE ultimate answer to the destruction of the Jewish state....perhaps even nmore so than the birthrate.

This is a phsycological fight in that regard or the warring parties on that front as well...there is much more at stake here than last time in 82, or 78.
I agree...the momentum that could be building right now is hugely disturbing and frightening.
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:23 AM   #478
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You have to remember that among Arabs, traditionally, he who achieves prowess in battle and wins military victories is the most esteemed as a leader. In their culture, they are revered. The reason why Hizbollah has managed to get as polular as it has been before this started, was only because they were the first force since 1948 that got Israel to back down in a military campaign. They did what Nasser could not. And behind all the polite diplomatic and cultured statements made from Egyptian, etc leaders, etc, REMEMBER THAT. NONE of them is going to be contrubting to the weakening of Hizbollah after this. To the contrary, their eyes are being openend. They will "fight" Iran in public but from now on, if Israel is the one who blinks on this, you can damn well bet that they'll be passing bills under the table to keep these folks in business. They are THE ultimate answer to the destruction of the Jewish state....perhaps even nmore so than the birthrate.

This is a phsycological fight in that regard or the warring parties on that front as well...there is much more at stake here than last time in 82, or 78.
The moderate Arab governments are interested in a Palestinian State and they release Hizbollah's actions are not contributing to that which is why they came out and condemned them. Iran and Syria are the only countries supplying Hizbollah.

Hizbollah's true strength lies in being able to hide behind innocent Lebanese civilians. Without them, they would have been wiped out long ago. They kill people and terrorize Israel if given the opportunity provided by the Israeli pullout from Lebanon 6 years ago, but the establishment of a buffer zone will put an end to much of the ability to hit Israeli towns. Provided that Israel clears out all civilians from the buffer zone, Hizbollah will have no ability to seriously challenge Israel in such a zone.

Many Arabs believe that they defeated Israel in every war they have fought with them. Hizbollah never defeated the IDF from 1982 to 2000, unless of course you consider their mere survival hiding behind the civilian population to be a victory. Israel pulled out in 2000 to fullfil a UN Security Council Resolution and as an alternative strategy to the situation. It failed and were seeing the results of the Israeli pullout over the past two weeks. The Ultimate result is that Hizbollah is far stronger now than they ever were when Israel was occupying parts of Lebanon. The withdrawal in 2000 was a choice, not something Israel did out of necessity or because they had been defeated on the battlefield in some way.
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:39 AM   #479
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Is Israel really "taking on Lebanon" at all? It appears that they are targeting Hezbollah where ever they exist in Lebanon. I don't believe they have engaged the Lebanon military in any way.

Re-establishing the buffer zone would be an incomplete mission, as Hezbollah would continue to operate, train, plan and attack from outside the buffer zone.
But this time, a buffer zone that is devoid of Lebanese civilians will be easier to maintain, and it will eliminate the immediate threat from 98% of the rockets that Hizbollah has in its arsenal. Hezbollah can certainly attack the buffer zone, but without a civilian population from which to operate from and hide behind, it becomes incredibly difficult for them to do much damage or infiltrate the buffer zone, much less be able to hit Israeli towns much further to the south.

That being said, it is not a final solution and I think this is where negotiation should be attempted to resolve the issues. A robust peacekeeping force that could fight Hezbollah if need be could be a result of such negotiations. Such a force could fill the buffer zone and allow the return of Lebanese civilians. Of course, Israel would have to agree to it, and their certainly not going to agree to something that is not much better than the current UN deployment. If the international community cannot come up with a solution, Israel can stay in the buffer zone indefinitly and continue to strike Hezbollah under favorable conditions than what we see on the ground currently. Hezbollah's ability to retaliate will be primarily limited to attempting to hit IDF forces in the buffer zone, a difficult task given the absence of a civilian population and limited ways of getting into the buffer zone without being detected and fired on by the IDF.
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:41 AM   #480
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Originally posted by Earnie Shavers


I don't think they've 'engaged' the military in the sense of actually fighting them, but they have attacked military bases. I would also call destroying plenty of civilian infrustructure a direct attack on Lebanon, not just Hezbollah. They've been knocking out power, water, communication and transport that effects far more than just Hezbollah.
When the Allies did the same thing to France in 1944, was it a direct attack on France?
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