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Old 07-26-2006, 10:05 PM   #436
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Originally posted by Irvine511




good golly, no one, not least of all "people" (nice lack of specificity) are saying that Israel (psst, it's spelled "Israeli") is indiscriminately bombing Lebanon. they ARE saying that much of the bombing is, firstly, out of proportion to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, and secondly, is disproportionately targeting civilian infastructure and creating a thoroughly unnecessary humanitarian crisis for the Lebanese people.

i think that Israel should not be targeting civilian infastructure (roads, bridges, the aiport, electrical plants) and a rescue mission to save the 2 Israeli soldiers would have been far preferable than the stated goal of trying to dismantle Hezbollah. even Israeli, meeting unanticipated resistance in southern Lebanon, now sees that they have bitten off more than they were initially prepared to chew. it seems as if the current Israeli administration has taken notes from Bush and hastily launched an overly ambitious military operation with no exit strategy. what's going to happen next? another invasion of Lebanon for another 18 years? another Lebanese quagmire? what's going to happen when rockets land in Tel Aviv?

this is precisely what Hezbollah wants -- a bogged down Israeli army, combined with a thoroughly bogged down American army.

and who benefits?

Iran.
Well, if you would take some time to read the thread, you would find several comments that claim that Israel is indeed bombing Lebanon indiscriminately.

The bombing and incursions are not simply about the kidnapping of two Israely soldiers, but multiple Hezbollah incursions into Israel over the past year and the rocketing of Israely towns over the past year as well.

Israel is not targeting to the civilian population. Unfortunately because Hezbollah uses and imbeds itself within the civilian population, it makes it very difficult to limit damage to innocent civilians. In my opinion, Israel has been to restrained and slow in its targeting which could prolong the immediate conflict, and lead to more civilian casualties than there might have to be.


So you think Hezbollah should be allowed free use and access of roads, bridges, airports, and electical plants through out Lebanon? Do you think the United States military was right when it targeted the same infastructure in Iraq(2003), Afghanistan(2001), Serbia(1999), Bosnia(1995), Iraq(1991), Panama(1989), France(1944)?

Dismantling Hezbollah's immediate ability to rocket northern Israeli towns requires that Israel remove Hezbollah from along its border and destroy infrustructure vital to the resupply of Hezbollah's war effort against Israel.

Israel is currently only using at most 10% of its ground and air forces in this conflict. It is a limited and restrained operation and Israel has always expected Hezbollah to fight as intensely as they have been. They have had 6 years, without interference from Israel, to prepare for this fight. The IDF is ready to bring in more of its forces, if they are needed. There was nothing hasty about the operations as small incursions by Israel had been in the planning stages for several years now. Israel is not concerned about an exit strategy, they are concerned about doing what is necessary to prevent their towns from being rocketed. If that means they have to take more territory and hold onto, that is what they will do. If it means removing all Lebanese citizens whether they are in Hezbollah or not, from an area within 20 miles of the Israeli border, that is what they will do.

Not everyone describes the Israeli experience in Lebanon from 1982 to 2000 to be a quagmire. It did protect Israeli territory and certainly prevented the rocketing of Israeli towns that we are seeing at the moment. Critics of the pullout commented that it would only strengthen Hezbollah for the next fight, and now these critics have been proven correct. The occupation of Lebanon did cost Israel 675 troops over 18 years, but that is far from anything that can legitimately be called a "quagmire". That works out to average of 37 troops per year and is a tiny fraction of what Israel has lossed in its other wars as well as being comparable to losses from fighting in the West Bank and Gaza. No one wants to see an increase in IDF casualties at all, but if moving into parts of Lebanon is necessary for the security and safety of Israeli citizens, then the IDF is prepared to do that.

Irans position is not improved when it has 150,000 US troops in the country on its Western border and another 20,000 in the country on its eastern border. Iran has never in its history been surounded by that level of combat power. Saddam had a strong military and cut the Iranian military to pieces in 1988 destroying 50% of its forces within a few months, but I'd be more afraid of 21 US armored and mechanized brigades backed up by the worlds largest Air Force than I would Saddam's military.

Hezbollah has tactically made a huge error and now military forces and equipment that has taken Hezbollah and its allies years to build up and cost hundreds of millions of dollars is being rapidly destroyed or used up.

If you think that benefits Iran, ok. I'm sure the leaders in Iran would prefer to see Israel being bombed without any sort of response against Hezbollah.

Iran continues to have a standard of living comparable to the Palestinian Occupied territories, while their military forces in terms of equipment and real power projection capability continue to remain limited, requiring the country to operate and hide behind non-state actors.
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Old 07-26-2006, 10:08 PM   #437
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Originally posted by Earnie Shavers


They're not taking Israel's side specificaly, what they are doing is siding against a rising "Shi'ite Crescent" from Lebanon around to Iran, with the potential to include Iraq as well. That's seen as a threat by the southern Arab states.
These same countries were more fearful of Iran back in 1982 during a bad time for Saddam's military on the front lines. Even so, they certainly did not react this way back then when one could argue that this whole "Shi'te Crescent" theory had more credibility.
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Old 07-26-2006, 10:37 PM   #438
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Originally posted by STING2
These same countries were more fearful of Iran back in 1982 during a bad time for Saddam's military on the front lines. Even so, they certainly did not react this way back then when one could argue that this whole "Shi'te Crescent" theory had more credibility.
An incredibly different situation with incredibly different politics and public perception.
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Old 07-27-2006, 02:53 AM   #439
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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines
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Israel Redefines Expectations of What Success Means

by Laura King
Los Angeles Times, July 26, 2006


JERUSALEM — Even before Wednesday's bruising day on the battlefields of south Lebanon, Israel's leaders had begun scaling back public expectations of a decisive—or a quick—victory over the guerrillas of Hezbollah.

Heading into the confrontation, senior Israeli officials had declared that the Shiite Muslim militia would be dealt a blow from which it could not recover. Its arsenal would be destroyed and its fighters driven out of south Lebanon, the officials said...With the fighting in its third week, however, Israelis are being told that Hezbollah can be weakened but not eradicated, that Israeli forces will not be able to police the border zone themselves, and that Hezbollah's rockets continue to pose a threat to Israeli towns.

"The target is not to totally dismantle Hezbollah," said Public Security Minister Avi Dichter, a former head of Shin Bet, Israel's domestic security service. "What we are doing now is to try to send a message to Hezbollah."

The difficulty of the fight Israel faces was obvious on Wednesday, when 9 of its soldiers were killed in southern Lebanon. Days into the campaign, there was already widespread acknowledgment among Israeli policymakers and commanders that Israel could not achieve its goals by air power alone. On the ground, in their first major forays into the border zone, Israeli troops this week encountered tougher-than-expected resistance...Elite forces discovered an elaborate maze of fortified caves and tunnels from which Hezbollah fighters, armed with sophisticated weapons, were able to strike at will.

...Hezbollah has maintained its ability to fight. A week ago, Israeli officials confidently said that they had destroyed large numbers of Hezbollah missiles and noted that the number of rockets fired into northern Israel was declining. Instead, after a brief lull, the number of rockets launched at Israeli towns rebounded and the attacks have continued unabated, virtually shutting down a swath of the country that is home to nearly 1 million people. 19 Israeli civilians have been killed by rocket fire; the latest was a 15-year-old girl killed Tuesday. 33 soldiers have died in the fighting—Israel's largest combat losses in years over such a short span.

The Israeli public still has bitter memories of a steady drumbeat of deaths during the nation's occupation of southern Lebanon in the 1980s and '90s. Returning to ground combat there remains a notion that many dread. In Tuesday's editions of the Maariv newspaper, Amir Rappaport wrote of the "enormous gap between the military challenge posed by Hezbollah, a shadowy guerrilla organization equipped with the best Iranian and Syrian weaponry, and the relatively smaller number of troops" that took part in the incursion. "In the end, the size of the operation that was decided on—neither several armored divisions that would surge in, nor an aerial operation alone—is liable to claim many casualties without bringing about any dramatic military accomplishment," Rappaport wrote.

Israeli analysts acknowledge that Israel's definition of victory is different from Hezbollah's. In order to present itself as victorious, Hezbollah need only survive. Yuval Steinitz, a member of the parliamentary Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, argued this week that the offensive already had underscored Israel's capability to deter attacks, fostering a sense in the region that the Jewish state would respond with overwhelming force to any assault on its territory. But other observers said that any perception that the Israeli military had been bloodied by Hezbollah could be extremely dangerous, because it would embolden the Shiite group's patrons—Iran and Syria—and perhaps others.
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Old 07-27-2006, 05:22 AM   #440
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

The continuing US support for Israel, a country that has had a nuclear bomb for decades (in compare to Hussein or Iran) and just doesn´t use it beacuse they would kill themselves,
I understand where you are coming from, your point of view makes a lot more sense.
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Old 07-27-2006, 08:39 AM   #441
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Good news this morning, guys! Nothing like optimism to start a day.

Quote:
Al Qaeda's No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call Thursday for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from "Spain to Iraq."

In a taped message broadcast by Al-Jazeera television, Ayman al-Zawahiri said the terrorist organization would not stand idly by while "these (Israeli) shells burn our brothers.

"All the world is a battlefield open in front of us," said the Egyptian-born al-Zawahiri, second-in-command to Osama bin Laden.

...

Another new audio or video message from bin Laden was also expected in the coming days and was planned to deal with Gaza and Lebanon, according to IntelCenter.
From CNN.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:35 AM   #442
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Originally posted by anitram
Good news this morning, guys! Nothing like optimism to start a day.



From CNN.
it was this way

With or Without the Israeli attack
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:43 AM   #443
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Quote:
Israel Redefines Expectations of What Success Means
What a stinkin load of crap. That just lays the foundation for another long term occupation.

If STING2 is right about Israel's militry capabilities, they could run Hezbollah out of south Lebanon about as easily as the US ran the Iraqi troops out of Kuwait.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:45 AM   #444
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan


it was this way

With or Without the Israeli attack
Actually, this is not true. Al Qaeda had always had a hot head when it came to the Palestinian territory and Israel but they had by and large kept their presence absent, leaving the terrorism to Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad.

Whereas Hezbollah is concerned, they are Shia and as such al Qaeda has fundamental differences with them. In general, the Sunni Arab states have not been receptive to Hezbollah for that reason.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:56 AM   #445
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[q]Israel is not targeting to the civilian population. Unfortunately because Hezbollah uses and imbeds itself within the civilian population, it makes it very difficult to limit damage to innocent civilians. In my opinion, Israel has been to restrained and slow in its targeting which could prolong the immediate conflict, and lead to more civilian casualties than there might have to be.
[/q]


but this is precisely the point. this is why Israel's tactics are doomed to fail in the long run and why Hezbollah (or any terrorist organization that implants within the local population) has actually defeated Israel, or whoever, with this particular move. this is why bombing is such a bad idea -- innocent civilians die, because hezbollah wants them to die, because dead 6 year olds killed by Israeli bombs mean more recruits. Israel is doing Hezbollah's recruiting work for them. violence begets violence. in some ways, it's very simple.



[q]So you think Hezbollah should be allowed free use and access of roads, bridges, airports, and electical plants through out Lebanon? Do you think the United States military was right when it targeted the same infastructure in Iraq(2003), Afghanistan(2001), Serbia(1999), Bosnia(1995), Iraq(1991), Panama(1989), France(1944)?[/q]

but why are they bombing the regular Lebanese army north of Beirut if their real enemy is Hizbullah, a southern Shiite paramilitary? why are they bombing radio relay stations?
again, it's HILARIOUS that you compare each and every single conflict to WW2, as if these are even remotely comparable. does the word "distinction" mean anything to you? how about "nuance"? it's not that i think Hezbollah should be allowed to use roads (way to re-frame the question and ignore the issue) and that i don't think civilians in Beirut should suffer enormous damage to infrastructure that will foment a humanitarian crisis.



[q]Israel is currently only using at most 10% of its ground and air forces in this conflict. It is a limited and restrained operation and Israel has always expected Hezbollah to fight as intensely as they have been.[/q]


hmmm ... guess not. check out Yolland's post.

[q]Israel is not concerned about an exit strategy, they are concerned about doing what is necessary to prevent their towns from being rocketed. If that means they have to take more territory and hold onto, that is what they will do. If it means removing all Lebanese citizens whether they are in Hezbollah or not, from an area within 20 miles of the Israeli border, that is what they will do.
[/q]


and we'll all go back to 1982, and the Israeli population will be bled by another prolonged occupation that will engender the hatred of Israel in yet another generation of Arabs. the only way this conflict can end is for the Lebanese state to be strengthened so that it has a hope of dealing with Hizbullah. Israel's actions are not strengthening the Lebanese state and are making average Israeli's less safe in the long run.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:11 AM   #446
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Good news this morning, guys! Nothing like optimism to start a day.



From CNN.
You must like every terror organization.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:32 AM   #447
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Originally posted by STING2
Hezbollah has tactically made a huge error and now military forces and equipment that has taken Hezbollah and its allies years to build up and cost hundreds of millions of dollars is being rapidly destroyed or used up.
Wow, this is a really short-sighted perspective on what Hezbollah is about (and capable of). Do you really not see the bigger picture here?

With al-Zawahiri's blessing, Sunnis and Shiites can now put aside their differences and focus their effort and energy on their real Zionist, imperialist enemies.

One step further toward a united Islam and Israeli and American governments seem to be playing right into it at every turn like brainless bullies who can't control their tempers when poked ...why???
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:38 AM   #448
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Originally posted by AliEnvy


With al-Zawahiri's blessing, Sunnis and Shiites can now put aside their differences and focus their effort and energy on their real Zionist, imperialist enemies.

There really putting aside there differences in Iraq. Does this make Bin Laden and his mini me The pope and Archbishop of Islam and do they represent modern islam. Whch for me right now shows hatred towards others, Death and rejoice over the death of innocents and the people who are brainwashed by it. Why do we never see any one who represents Islam condem the acts of there religion.
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:20 PM   #449
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Originally posted by Justin24


There really putting aside there differences in Iraq. Does this make Bin Laden and his mini me The pope and Archbishop of Islam and do they represent modern islam. Whch for me right now shows hatred towards others, Death and rejoice over the death of innocents and the people who are brainwashed by it. Why do we never see any one who represents Islam condem the acts of there religion.
Plenty of Muslims have come out against terrorism by Muslim terrorists. Turkey has a terrible terrorist problem and they know what it's like. Muslim leaders in Jordan and Egypt, both moderate Islamic states which recognize Israel, have come out against terrorism. The not-so-moderate Saudis have come out against terrorism, even though you could hold them indirectly responsible for it because they still teach Wahhabism and Osama bin Laden and other leading terrorists are from there.
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:28 PM   #450
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Western Media and Arab media have never shown such things as you described.

What about Clerics???
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