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Old 07-26-2006, 06:54 PM   #421
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Originally posted by Irvine511
STING -- have you ever posted something that you haven't already posted before?
Have you?

Really, look at the title of this thread and tell me how this is a relevant question. I know how obsessed you are with my posting habbits so I suggest you start a new thread.
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Old 07-26-2006, 07:00 PM   #422
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Originally posted by trevster2k
I agree that the fog of war can lead to friendly fire but sometimes people just fuck up. The bombing of Canadians was a fuck up, not a mistake, a mistake is spelling their, thier.

The shelling of the UN post wasn't a single wayward missile. It was a continuous shelling of the area even after calls were made to stop shelling that specific spot. So this goes beyond a simple wayward missile or a mistake, someone fucked up big time leading to this incident and needless deaths. Someone should be removed from their position as they used poor judgement.
When your using firepower of this nature, a mistake can lead to the unintended death or injury of someone. You cannot completely remove human error no matter all the safe guards you put in place. In the 1991 Gulf War, 1 out of every 4 US troops killed was killed by friendly fire. During the D-Day invasion, several hundred Airborne troops who were dropped behind German lines were bombed by the US Air Corp causing hundreds of casualties.
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Old 07-26-2006, 07:04 PM   #423
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Originally posted by Irvine511




simply because Israel chooses not to kill 300,000 innocent civilians (which you seem to think is a great act of compassion) does not mean that the present operation is good policy.
People are describing the current Israely military operation as unrestricted bombing of all of Lebanon and that is simply false. If that were the case, 300,000 civilians or more would be dead by now.

If you think the current Israely military operation has caused to much loss of life, please describe for me an Israely military operation that would create and acceptable loss of civilian life and would be considered a "good policy".
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Old 07-26-2006, 07:10 PM   #424
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars



Bullshit again. You have no clue what you´re talking about.

It seems a UN soldier from my country has been killed.

You can watch the attack here, its the first movie on top. http://iptv.orf.at

Please tell me how this is supposed to be an accident.

Accidents happen, lol. that´s just weak, STING2. I, for one, did not forget about US soldiers attacking journalists in Iraq.

The four UN soldiers asked the Israeli troops TEN TIMES to stop the fire after the first bomb had hit in a distance of 180 metres, CNN reports. In the six hours before they were destroyed, there were fourteen more explosions in the direct neighborhood of the UN post.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/me...ers/index.html

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/

If there were some technical or communication problem, it wouldn't have mattered if the UN force had used the same method a hundred times.

If you study the history of friendly fire, you will realize that this is a hazard on any battlefield and even happens in training sometimes.

You've not shown any evidence that the IDF, the Israely government, or even the person who launched the missile or fired the shell, intended to strike a UN position and kill UN personal.
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Old 07-26-2006, 07:15 PM   #425
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Originally posted by trevster2k


Man, you really distort my position. I said, within reason. I said attacks on civilian infrastructures and civilian deaths are not a good thing. Military force is acceptable, blowing up civilian airports, power stations and business is not. And they aren't living under constant bombardment from rockets, presently, yes, since this whole shitstorm started the entire region is a hellhole. They are living under the present THREAT of rockets.
Several Israely towns have been rocketed by Hezbollah over the past year. The Rocket fire against the towns DID NOT simply start with the Israely military operation!


Anything that Hezbollah uses in Lebanon, to transport troops, supplies etc, becomes a military target. If they fire missiles from a quiet neighborhood, the launchers in that neighborhood are military targets. The Israely's only target "civilian infrastructure" that is being used in some way by Hezbollah.

The United States did exactly the same thing in Afghanistan in 2001, in Iraq in 2003, in Iraq in 1991, in France in 1944.
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Old 07-26-2006, 07:29 PM   #426
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Originally posted by yolland


STING--Please stop rotely citing past European anti-Semitism as if that were relevant to the moral right of present-day Europeans to have a view of this conflict different from your own. It isn't, that's just inflammatory, and you're obviously quite capable of arguing in Israel's defense without resorting to that.

I find Europe's general lack of support for Israel to be disturbing in light of what happened in Europe in previous decades. Many people in Israel, some who survived World War II in Europe, feel exactly the same way. It may seem like ancient history to some, but its not ancient history to them, and they find the parallels of support or the lack of, to be disturbing. I've never stated that because someone is from Europe, that they do not have the right to criticize Israel in any way they want to.
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Old 07-26-2006, 07:34 PM   #427
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I think the younger generation in both countries needs to push for peace. Every older person I know from Isreal or Lebanon is so stuck in the past. I guess a new generation of hate and conflict is being born and thats a shame.

They need to COEXIST!!!! lol. They probably already knocked out the Coexist graffiti wall in Isreal with a rocket. How ironic and sad would that be?

Anyways, I found an awesome coexist shirt at this site :zentees.com.

JUST FYI.
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Old 07-26-2006, 07:45 PM   #428
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Originally posted by all_i_want
ive been to armenia, ive been to romania, and both is pretty crappy in terms of way of life. especially armenia, it still has not completely shifted from a soviet style state to a democracy. they have gaps in electricity supply, no luxuries or stores that sell them, even in the capital, erivan. romanians actually come to turkey for work, as house aides or similar jobs. theyre usually paid around 350 dollars a month.

in the end, all those factors cant explain the quality of life in a country. i wouldnt want to live in more than half of those countries you've listed. numbers are not everything. turkish society has a social safety net that most western countries lack. it is not a state program, but it is a network of friends, relatives, who help each other. there are not many homeless people on our streets, compared to the streets of new york, or boston. that kind of qualities are something you can not measure. neither can the UN.
The numbers are objective, unbiased and comprehensive look at the entire country rather than simply a snapshot of life they would get by a visiting this country or that country. Turkey is not some oasis of quality standard of living, as I'm sure many Kurds would attest to. The EU plans to admit Romania, but their not planning on admitting Turkey anytime soon. I'm sure Turkey does deserve to be admitted eventually though.

Just ask Mexican tourist what they think about Turkey. In the year 2000, in order to enter Turkey, anyone from Mexico had to receive a shot at the border or pay a fine. Some Mexicans who received the shot because they could not pay have reportedly been infected with certain diseases, do probably to the use of unclean needles. Sure, Romania is no oasis either, but you did not have to deal with that type of crap just to enter the country back in the fall of 2000.


A couple of factors that put the Standard of Living in Armenia at a level that is higher than Turkey despite lower GDP per capita are life expectancy and adult literacy.

Armenia life expectancy rate is 71.5 years
Armenia adult literacy rate is 99.5%

Turkey life expectancy rate is 68.7
Turkey adult literacy rate is 88.3%
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:21 PM   #429
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Originally posted by STING2
Israel is blamed for innocent civilian deaths by groups an countries who fail to understand who and what is truely to blame for the conflict. Israel does what it has to do, to defend itself and keep advancing into the future as it had done for 58 years. People in Israel don't stop going to the discothque or rock concerts by U2 and others. Israely's don't stop living and expanding and improving their way of life. On the otherside, Hezbollah and Humas only continue to engage in actions which ruin the lives of the people they claim to be helping and does nothing to stop Israel's advancement into the future.

Dropping bombs is one of several effective ways to fight terrorism, and in this case, a necessary one given the immediate threat to Israely cities. The Israely's are essentially fighting a large military force on the border and need to clear a 20 mile area in order to prevent Northern Israely towns from being hit by Hezbollah rockets. This is a necessary and effective solution for this immediate problem.


do you really think your average Israeli is safer today than he was 10 years ago? 20 years ago? 30 years ago? is the Arab world better off today than it was 10 years ago? 20 years ago? 30 years ago?

it's quite obvious that Israel's constant need to defend itself is proof that the current policy isn't working. bombs aren't going to solve a damn thing in the Arab world nor make the Israelis any safer. we've seen what bombs have done in Iraq -- ignite a civil war.

but continue to assert the necessity and effectiveness of what has been a failed policy towards terrorism over the past 60 years.
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:26 PM   #430
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Originally posted by STING2


Have you?

Really, look at the title of this thread and tell me how this is a relevant question. I know how obsessed you are with my posting habbits so I suggest you start a new thread.


you're pulling this GDP/UN HDI crap out of your ass again as if it has anything to do with the title of this thread. these posts are totally interchangeable with any of your other posts that bring up the UN HDI report.

if you can only cite one source for your assertions, they are quite tenuous indeed (like saying that Colin Powell says that there is no "Bush Doctrine" when Bush himself has referred to the "Bush Doctrine" on the record).
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:34 PM   #431
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Originally posted by STING2


People are describing the current Israely military operation as unrestricted bombing of all of Lebanon and that is simply false. If that were the case, 300,000 civilians or more would be dead by now.

If you think the current Israely military operation has caused to much loss of life, please describe for me an Israely military operation that would create and acceptable loss of civilian life and would be considered a "good policy".


good golly, no one, not least of all "people" (nice lack of specificity) are saying that Israel (psst, it's spelled "Israeli") is indiscriminately bombing Lebanon. they ARE saying that much of the bombing is, firstly, out of proportion to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, and secondly, is disproportionately targeting civilian infastructure and creating a thoroughly unnecessary humanitarian crisis for the Lebanese people.

i think that Israel should not be targeting civilian infastructure (roads, bridges, the aiport, electrical plants) and a rescue mission to save the 2 Israeli soldiers would have been far preferable than the stated goal of trying to dismantle Hezbollah. even Israeli, meeting unanticipated resistance in southern Lebanon, now sees that they have bitten off more than they were initially prepared to chew. it seems as if the current Israeli administration has taken notes from Bush and hastily launched an overly ambitious military operation with no exit strategy. what's going to happen next? another invasion of Lebanon for another 18 years? another Lebanese quagmire? what's going to happen when rockets land in Tel Aviv?

this is precisely what Hezbollah wants -- a bogged down Israeli army, combined with a thoroughly bogged down American army.

and who benefits?

Iran.
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:51 PM   #432
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Originally posted by Irvine511

and who benefits?

Iran.

Ding! Please collect your prize near coat check as you leave.

Israel took the pre-G8 distraction bait in a spectacular way. They are doing precisely what Iran want. That, IMO, is the massive mistake on their part.
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Old 07-26-2006, 09:10 PM   #433
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Originally posted by Irvine511




do you really think your average Israeli is safer today than he was 10 years ago? 20 years ago? 30 years ago? is the Arab world better off today than it was 10 years ago? 20 years ago? 30 years ago?

it's quite obvious that Israel's constant need to defend itself is proof that the current policy isn't working. bombs aren't going to solve a damn thing in the Arab world nor make the Israelis any safer. we've seen what bombs have done in Iraq -- ignite a civil war.

but continue to assert the necessity and effectiveness of what has been a failed policy towards terrorism over the past 60 years.
If the policy was a failure, Israel would not exist today let alone, have one of the highest standards living in the world. If you understood how close Israel came to being overrun in the past, you would know that Israel is indeed safer today than it was 20 or 30 or more years ago. Israel is no longer at war with countries like Jordan and Egypt. These countries have recognized Israel's right to exist. Several Arab countries have come out and condemned Hezbollah not Israel, for starting this current crises, when was the last time these countries actually took Israel's side on any issue?

Military force has prevented Israel from being wiped out and its population from being slaughtered, countless times in the past. Israel continues to have one of the highest standards of living in the world, and the country continues to advance and prosper despite the fact that they live in a region where so many people a dedicated to their destruction. Israel is proven that although they are a tiny country, smart and skillful use of military force can allow a country like Israel to survive and thrive in a sea of enemies. Gradually, the Arab world is coming to accept Israel, but total change does not happen overnight despite the bizarre expectations of some people.
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Old 07-26-2006, 09:21 PM   #434
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Originally posted by Irvine511




you're pulling this GDP/UN HDI crap out of your ass again as if it has anything to do with the title of this thread. these posts are totally interchangeable with any of your other posts that bring up the UN HDI report.

if you can only cite one source for your assertions, they are quite tenuous indeed (like saying that Colin Powell says that there is no "Bush Doctrine" when Bush himself has referred to the "Bush Doctrine" on the record).
The standard of living of Israel relative to its neighbors is indeed an issue that is relevant to the thread unlike your comments about what certain members of the forum choose to posts. I can cite other sources, but In this case, I'm citing a source that is most widely recognized as being the most accurate and comprehensive.

Once again, take your personal crap to another thread of your own. If you want to actually make a comment about the Israely/Lebanon conflict, good, but this is not a thread for commenting about a members alleged posting habits etc.
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Old 07-26-2006, 09:23 PM   #435
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Originally posted by STING2
Several Arab countries have come out and condemned Hezbollah not Israel, for starting this current crises, when was the last time these countries actually took Israel's side on any issue?
They're not taking Israel's side specificaly, what they are doing is siding against a rising "Shi'ite Crescent" from Lebanon around to Iran, with the potential to include Iraq as well. That's seen as a threat by the southern Arab states.
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