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Old 07-26-2006, 06:05 PM   #406
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars




Terrorists are cruel and need to be stopped, we all agree with that. On the other hand Israel has committed so many crimes by international standards in the last 30 or 40 years - and not against terrorists, but against people like me and you who just happened to live in the wrong place - it is really disturbing to see they can get away with all that - just because they have US support.

No, I don´t feel sorry for Israel as a nation.
Its disturbing how many Europeans falsely accuse Israely's of war crimes, considering how Europe treated the Jews for many decades and especially their treatment of them in the 1930s and World War II.
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:08 PM   #407
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Originally posted by all_i_want


then how do acts like bombing beirut's airports and highways relate to this objective? last time i checked, beirut is NOT in south lebanon.
Hezbollah is in Beirut though and missiles have been fired from several of these area's into Israel. In addition, Hezbollah has supplies and munitions widely distributed all across Lebanon. Israel needs to isolate Hezbollah forces in southern Lebanon from resupply.
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:11 PM   #408
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Originally posted by anitram


How many billions per year does Israel get in aid from the US? And how many billions does Lebanon get?

Yeah, I thought so.
Israel gets several Billion dollars of aid from the United States each year, which these days is only a tiny fraction of Israel's $160 Billion dollar economy, so the aid they receive does not impact Israel nearly to the degree that you think it does. Plus, Egypt receives just as much aid, and look where Egypt ranks on Human Development Index.

Aid to Lebanon is important, but it can't really effectively be spent and used when Hezbollah is running the show.
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:12 PM   #409
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Originally posted by STING2


Its strange, you claim Israel has the right to defend itself, but claim that Israel's military operation will accomplish nothing. Essentially, your saying that Israel has every right to defend itself, except through the use of its military forces. If the area you live in was under constant bombardment from rockets, what do you think those in charge of security would do to remove the problem?
Man, you really distort my position. I said, within reason. I said attacks on civilian infrastructures and civilian deaths are not a good thing. Military force is acceptable, blowing up civilian airports, power stations and business is not. And they aren't living under constant bombardment from rockets, presently, yes, since this whole shitstorm started the entire region is a hellhole. They are living under the present THREAT of rockets.
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:12 PM   #410
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Originally posted by STING2


Its disturbing how many Europeans falsely accuse Israely's of war crimes, considering how Europe treated the Jews for many decades and especially their treatment of them in the 1930s and World War II.
It is disturbing how you assume that I have any duty toward the current state of Israel.

The 1930s and WWII have nothing to do with my opinion of Israel today. It is a shame I have to mention that. And it is a shame that you accuse "many Europeans" - meaning me - of not being able to make a difference between then and now.

It angers me beyond comaprison and if I knew your full name, you would be risking a complaint for defamation.
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:15 PM   #411
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

It angers me beyond comaprison and if I knew your full name, you would be risking a complaint for defamation.
Funny how someone says something you don't like and you might report them, yet you insulted me earlier and I have not because I can handle it.

Answer me WHHDTBC, why we never see a single muslim condem terrorist attacks?
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:20 PM   #412
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Originally posted by anitram


NOT EVEN ONE. Where do you get this idea from?

US aid to the Palestinian territories totalled something around $400 million per year and that has been halted since Hamas took over. Figures from Coucil on Foreign Relations.

The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries4, even though Israel’s population comprises just .001% of the world’s population and has one the world’s higher per capita incomes.

*

Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 – making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5
*

The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.
*

Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.6
*

Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven – leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan – with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.
*

In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.


Have fun covering those expenses with your taxes, Justin!
How many other countries in the world have been brutally attacked on the first day of their independence by 5 Arab countries and Palestinians who REJECTED a UN Partition plan that would have given them the Palestinian state they claim they are seeking?

How many countries have been in a constant state of war from the past 58 years and have had to fight numerous wars to prevent their country from being wiped off from the face of the map.

Yes, in the early years, Israel was extremely dependent on US aid for lots of things, but look at the extreme situation they were facing and how outnumbered they were.

Since 1980 though, Israel has become less and less dependent on the United States for aid in many area's, including military hardware and equipment, which make up the bulk of Israel's purchases from the United States. Israel now exports double of what it imports from the United States every year.

Missing from your states is the amount of aid the United States gives to countries that at one time were Israel's enemies, and exceed the total aid given to Israel every year.

5 Billion dollars even relative to Israel's annual economic output is a drop in the bucket and relative to US expenditures and economic output, its not even worth mentioning.

You can't have fun covering an expense so small your not even aware of it.
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:20 PM   #413
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars



It seems a UN soldier from my country has been killed.

Well, maybe Austria and the countries of the other UN soldiers should now start bombing Israel. Killing a non-belligerent soldier is certainly worse than kidnapping two soldiers!

Don't you agree?
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:22 PM   #414
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Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage. Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side were reported yesterday. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:25 PM   #415
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This thread is getting way overheated and more than a few posts are descending into "Is not!" "Is too!" type interchanges.

Justin--please slow down and take a moment to line up your thoughts before posting. I don't really see what the difference in how Americans and Canadians spend their tax dollars has to do with the morality of Israel's military behavior, but if you're going to make that case (or any other one) it deserves more than a hurled out one-liner.

STING--Please stop rotely citing past European anti-Semitism as if that were relevant to the moral right of present-day Europeans to have a view of this conflict different from your own. It isn't, that's just inflammatory, and you're obviously quite capable of arguing in Israel's defense without resorting to that.

hiphop and everyone else--please lay off packaging your responses in withering scorn. It doesn't add anything to your argument and can only hurt the discussion. Obviously a lot of us have strong feelings about this conflict, but ultimately this is just a discussion we're engaging in here, and it needs to stay civil. If you can't manage that at the moment, perhaps best to step away from it for awhile and come back to make your points later.

Thanks.
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:34 PM   #416
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Originally posted by all_i_want



that puts turkey at #92, and having lived here for 21 years now and seen quite a few places, i find that list laughable, really. even by looking at CIA's factbook, you can see why that list is totally warped. turkey's GDP per capita is double that of armenia, yet armenia is at number 83? i mean, they have NOTHING over there. if your measure of quality of life is having 'stuff' and concerts, well, i am afraid turkey is way ahead of say.. ukraine or romania in those, too.

by that account, its easy to say that the list isnt dead on accurate on lebanon either. actually, with 6500 dollars per capita, id say it is pretty decent in the lifestyle it offers, despite invasions and civil wars. if youre really willing to argue your point that lebanon is really a hellhole and we should all aspire to the wonderful way of life the american empire presents, you ought to put forward better arguments.
Let me explain something, Per Capita GDP does not EQUAL standard of living although it does impact it. The UN Human Development Index considers other factors like Education, Life Expectancy, Health Care, poverty levels, and other statistics that a raw GDP divided by population figure will not tell you about.

There is nothing wrong with the arguements I've put forward.

Take a look at all the different measures that impact standard of living here:

http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indicators.cfm


While no list is perfect, the Human Development Index is widely considered to be the most accurate considering and using the most variables and has often been used by Bono in his humanitarian work.
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:41 PM   #417
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Looks Like Iran is now helping Hizbolla. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/....ap/index.html
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:41 PM   #418
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You all may want to refer to the OECD website to obtain figures regarding developmental aid provided by states. My foreign policy class refers to the figures provided by the OECD. In addition we also refer to figures published in the 2004/2005 Strategic Survey published by the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

(link to information regarding 2005 ODA)
http://www.oecd.org/document/40/0,23..._37413,00.html

http://www.iiss.org/
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:46 PM   #419
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ive been to armenia, ive been to romania, and both is pretty crappy in terms of way of life. especially armenia, it still has not completely shifted from a soviet style state to a democracy. they have gaps in electricity supply, no luxuries or stores that sell them, even in the capital, erivan. romanians actually come to turkey for work, as house aides or similar jobs. theyre usually paid around 350 dollars a month.

in the end, all those factors cant explain the quality of life in a country. i wouldnt want to live in more than half of those countries you've listed. numbers are not everything. turkish society has a social safety net that most western countries lack. it is not a state program, but it is a network of friends, relatives, who help each other. there are not many homeless people on our streets, compared to the streets of new york, or boston. that kind of qualities are something you can not measure. neither can the UN.
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Old 07-26-2006, 06:51 PM   #420
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Originally posted by Irvine511




your first paragraph is utterly preposterous. if Israel did choose to wipe out the West Bank, then the entire world would condemn the country and the country would lose any and all sympathy. i don't see it as some great act of courage and restraint that Israel hasn't nuked Gaza. it's in Israel's best interests to make other's believe that they are doing all they can to minimize civilian casualties.

it doesn't matter that Israel is doing all it can, the point is, civlians are always, always going to die quite horrible, needless deaths, and Israel is going to be blamed for it, and the cycle continues, and another generation of Israelies has to worry about whether the discotheque is going to blow up tonight and another Palestinian has to worry about whether a rocket is going to fly through his window because a Hamas operative lives two stories above him.

and Hamaz and Hezbollah know this. this is why they try to maximize civlian casualties whenever Israel responds/attacks, which begs the question: if we know that dropping bombs is the worst way to fight terrorism, why do we continue to do so?
The paragraph was not preposterous, but a statement of fact about what Israely conventional forces have the power to do. If Hezbollah and Humas had that power, its obvious they would never exercise the restraint that Israel does.

Israel is blamed for innocent civilian deaths by groups an countries who fail to understand who and what is truely to blame for the conflict. Israel does what it has to do, to defend itself and keep advancing into the future as it had done for 58 years. People in Israel don't stop going to the discothque or rock concerts by U2 and others. Israely's don't stop living and expanding and improving their way of life. On the otherside, Hezbollah and Humas only continue to engage in actions which ruin the lives of the people they claim to be helping and does nothing to stop Israel's advancement into the future.

Dropping bombs is one of several effective ways to fight terrorism, and in this case, a necessary one given the immediate threat to Israely cities. The Israely's are essentially fighting a large military force on the border and need to clear a 20 mile area in order to prevent Northern Israely towns from being hit by Hezbollah rockets. This is a necessary and effective solution for this immediate problem.
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