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Old 07-24-2006, 02:07 PM   #301
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Well this is the Lebonese Governments fault for allowing this group to grow and become a political power in its country and for that they are paying for it. So when they show footage of dead Lebonese civilians I say nice going Lebenon for keeping Hizbolla around.
In fact this reminds me of what Somolia has become an anarchic nation where the central government is now to afraid to function because of Islamic extremists.
Easy to blame the Lebanese government when you live in a country where our government is strong enough to shut down homegrown terrorism.

You're essentially arguing "Hey Lebanon, you shoulda been stronger!" I think that is an unfair argument.
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Old 07-24-2006, 02:20 PM   #302
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Oh this is Bullshit. Why is so hard for people to stand up to there governments. yes It will be civil war, but in the end it may be good. So does this mean all Western countries are superior to smaller non-anglo countries?
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Old 07-24-2006, 02:54 PM   #303
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^ no, but in this particular case, Lebanon's government is in a weakened state after a decade long war civil war along with attacks from neighbours. Their society and infrastructure was severely weakened by it's recent history. Lebanon was just finally starting to get back on it's feet but now they are free-falling back to chaos. And standing up to their governments is a difficult thing in many countries, as a Canadian, I witnessed how difficult it was for US citizens to criticize the Bush administration regarding the Iraq war, many people were attacked for their stance and accused of being anti-American or a traitor. And that's a civilized country where generally people don't shoot you for an opposing opinion. Imagine what it's like in a country where the dominant military is a non-governing terrorist group who would probably kill you and your family for standing up to them. It's a challenging thing to step up for what you believe in and put yourself at risk, or endangering your life.
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Old 07-24-2006, 03:09 PM   #304
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^Well said, trevster.
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Old 07-24-2006, 03:15 PM   #305
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I am sorry but I cannot agree with you. But your entitled to your opinion. I was listening to a talk radio show. There saying the people in the 30's and 40's faced Nazism today we face Islamic Extremism as the new world threat.
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Old 07-24-2006, 04:03 PM   #306
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source
Nice, waffly response by Saudi Arabia. Why don't they offer to convene an Arab-League meeting, to put coordinated pressure on Hezbollah and Iran to return the soldiers? Offer to lead the UN peacekeeping forces and put their soldiers in a future buffer zone?

Answer?

It's in Saudi Arabia's (and Iran's) interest to have the middle east perpetually a little fuct up.

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/com...rgyprices.html

It's over $75/barrel.
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Old 07-24-2006, 04:04 PM   #307
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Originally posted by Justin24
I am sorry but I cannot agree with you. But your entitled to your opinion. I was listening to a talk radio show. There saying the people in the 30's and 40's faced Nazism today we face Islamic Extremism as the new world threat.
This is very true. We can keep "kicking the can down the road" - but evententually we are going to have to deal with Islamo-fascism.
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Old 07-24-2006, 04:41 PM   #308
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I am sorry but I cannot agree with you. But your entitled to your opinion. I was listening to a talk radio show. There saying the people in the 30's and 40's faced Nazism today we face Islamic Extremism as the new world threat.
And the people of Germany did a really great job of standing up to Hitler. I'm not suggesting all Germans are Nazis, it's just that sometimes self-preservation supercedes the greater good. And even when you know wrong is being done, few people have the strength to step in and speak up. And sometimes it's suicide to speak up, so it is better to just go along with the crowd. The Nazis used an Iron Fist to crush any opposition and created a climate of fear with real consequences which stopped any open organized opposition. Eventually, the world rallied to defeat the Nazis but it wasn't an overnight thing. Hitler had his run of the planet for a while before there was an organized effort to stop him.

Islamic extremism is an itsy bitsy problem compared to the Nazi War Machine of WWII which was rolling over Europe and exterminating millions of people. I wish people would stop comparing today's events to World War II, totally different circumstances and scale.

Also, it's easy to tell others to stand up for themselves when you are not in their shoes. Try to think of their perspective. Would I like to see the people of Lebanon rise up and defeat Hezbelloh, certainly but why didn't the people of Iraq rise up against Saddam? Sometimes despite your best intentions, it's impossible or extremely difficult to create change in the short term. The situation on the ground is real, the chit chat amongst ourselves and radio shows is just that, chit chat. We don't have our kids and family in the line of fire who are our immediate concerns and responsibilities.
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Old 07-24-2006, 04:46 PM   #309
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Originally posted by STING2


If Israel was firing indiscriminately into the Lebanon they could have killed over 300,000 people by now, not just 300! It does not serve Israel's interest to to fire its missiles and shells indiscriminately and cause more large numbers of civilian casualties.

WHY IS HEZBOLLAH FIRING ROCKETS FROM RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS? One should try answering that question before they accuse the Israely's of anything.
Why are they firing rockets?? Because they are crazy militants thats why! I'm not defending Hezbollah in any way, but this is overkill. Israel is crippling the Lebanese state, so how the hell does that serve their long term interests - having a stable, secular and capable government in one of their important neighbours. It doesn't. Their current operation:

-Enforces anti-Israeli sentiments in Lebanon.
-Strenghtens Hezbollah position in the country, as the only armed group who stood up to the invaders.
-Destroys the infrastructure that took Lebanon decades to build.

Also, I don't think the government of Israel should be playing tit-for-tat with a non-governing aspect of Lebanese population, Hezbollah. Don't tell me they are essentially doing the same thing, missiles against missiles. You'd be saying Israel is no different than Hezbollah.
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:02 PM   #310
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Originally posted by trevster2k


And the people of Germany did a really great job of standing up to Hitler. I'm not suggesting all Germans are Nazis, it's just that sometimes self-preservation supercedes the greater good. And even when you know wrong is being done, few people have the strength to step in and speak up. And sometimes it's suicide to speak up, so it is better to just go along with the crowd. The Nazis used an Iron Fist to crush any opposition and created a climate of fear with real consequences which stopped any open organized opposition. Eventually, the world rallied to defeat the Nazis but it wasn't an overnight thing. Hitler had his run of the planet for a while before there was an organized effort to stop him.

Islamic extremism is an itsy bitsy problem compared to the Nazi War Machine of WWII which was rolling over Europe and exterminating millions of people. I wish people would stop comparing today's events to World War II, totally different circumstances and scale.

Also, it's easy to tell others to stand up for themselves when you are not in their shoes. Try to think of their perspective. Would I like to see the people of Lebanon rise up and defeat Hezbelloh, certainly but why didn't the people of Iraq rise up against Saddam? Sometimes despite your best intentions, it's impossible or extremely difficult to create change in the short term. The situation on the ground is real, the chit chat amongst ourselves and radio shows is just that, chit chat. We don't have our kids and family in the line of fire who are our immediate concerns and responsibilities.
But if you compare the two, they are almost simular. National Pride, althought one is more a religous sect, The other believed in the domanance of the Aryan race. The Islamic extremist groups are growing and so is the threat. How long will it take you to realize the major problem we are having?

The islamic mosques and imams are doing nothing to curb the tide. We here more about people being brainwashed in Islam to a false way, which is what Hitler did.
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:48 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judah


Nice, waffly response by Saudi Arabia. Why don't they offer to convene an Arab-League meeting, to put coordinated pressure on Hezbollah and Iran to return the soldiers? Offer to lead the UN peacekeeping forces and put their soldiers in a future buffer zone?

Answer?

It's in Saudi Arabia's (and Iran's) interest to have the middle east perpetually a little fuct up.

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/com...rgyprices.html

It's over $75/barrel.


Well done, Judah. Rule #1 of conflict analysis: follow the money.
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:50 PM   #312
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Originally posted by Justin24


But if you compare the two, they are almost simular. National Pride, althought one is more a religous sect, The other believed in the domanance of the Aryan race. The Islamic extremist groups are growing and so is the threat. How long will it take you to realize the major problem we are having?

The islamic mosques and imams are doing nothing to curb the tide. We here more about people being brainwashed in Islam to a false way, which is what Hitler did.
Islamic people have no sense of national pride. They think in terms of their tribe, not in terms of their nations. Al-Zarquawi didn't give a damn about being a Jordanian by birth. His tribal membership was what mattered to him. The Islamic extremist groups, while a threat, are not the threat to the West that Hitler was.
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:56 PM   #313
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Originally posted by verte76
The Islamic extremist groups, while a threat, are not the threat to the West that Hitler was.
Are you sure about that. With the spew of hatred in some Mosques could be enough to fan the flames of destruction
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Old 07-24-2006, 06:24 PM   #314
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This is true. It does, however, raise the question of whether Israel should continue to use it's heavy-handed approach in light of this. While I agree with Sting2 assertion that Israel could have killed more Lebanese civilians if they'd wanted to, I don't think that means that Israel could have taken a different approach. It's like saying, "Well, you know they could have used a nuclear missile to kill a fly." That still doesn't change the fact that using shotgun to kill a fly is still overkill.

Again, I think Israel is in a sense holding the whole nation of Lebanon responsible for the actions of Hezbollah and is moving forward with conventional-style warfare against the nation as a result. How else do you justify Israel bombing bridges, the airport etc?
Hezbollah is essentially a professional military organization. Bombing the bridges and perhaps the airport is key to insuring that Hezbollah will not receive certain types of supplies from other countries.

What Israel has done with its conventional military arsenal has been very restrained and slow. Typically only 100 air sorties per day and only a total of 20,000 shells fired by artillery after two weeks. The IDF is potentially capable of an air sorti rate 10 times this and could have fired far more artillery shells over this time period.

The IDF's military actions up to this point appear restrained and limited, considering what they could really do with the conventional military capability they have.
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Old 07-24-2006, 06:31 PM   #315
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^Financeguy, while I feel that Israel is trying to kill a fly with a shotgun, the snippet you quoted sounds suspect to me. It seems very heavily biased, and to be frank, sounds like kind of obvious anti-Israel, and possibly anti-American propaganda.

IMHO.
Posting of an article does not necessarily imply endorsement of the writer's point of view.

However it should be noted that the author of the article Paul Craig Roberts is not only an American but served as a senior official in the Reagan administration.
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