MERGED--> all discussion of Israel/Lebanon conflict - Page 17 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-21-2006, 03:20 PM   #241
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
did you read and then think about that article before you posted it?
More than this reply
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 03:21 PM   #242
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


More than this reply


i doubt it.

but nice snappy response.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 03:23 PM   #243
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:35 PM
If you care to add substance, please do.

Otherwise, stop trying to do the Robert Conrad battery commercial routine.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 03:28 PM   #244
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
If you care to add substance, please do.

Otherwise, stop trying to do the Robert Conrad battery commercial routine.


i'm amazed that you'd take the bravado of a Middle Eastern leader as literal, and then use that to justify dead Lebanese. this is the region from whence "the mother of all battles" originated.

the point you've tried to make with this article has been rebutted, both before and after the posting.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 03:33 PM   #245
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:35 PM
Who's "justifying" dead Lebonese?

I've questioned the victimization of the Lebonese by Hezbollah.

If there was a time for "bravado" - why is it focused on the Jews now instead of the free run by Hezbollah?
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 03:40 PM   #246
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Who's "justifying" dead Lebonese?

I've questioned the victimization of the Lebonese by Hezbollah.

If there was a time for "bravado" - why is it focused on the Jews now instead of the free run by Hezbollah?


could it be that Israel seems likely to invade with ground troops?

also, for the sake of discussion, please refer to Israelis as "Israelis." to call them Jews isn't terribly accurate, since while most (but certainly not all Israelis) are Jews, not all Jews are Israelis. i know this helps you paint the situation as one of pure Arab anti-Semitism, but it's not terribly accuarate.

through the questioning of the innocence or guilt of the average Lebanese person through their active or "passive" support of Hezbollah -- which, as has been explained to you in this thread, is minimal at best -- you're implying that the Lebanese are de facto supporters of Hezbollah by virtue of their citizenship effectively stripping them of their status as innocent civilians.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 04:21 PM   #247
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep





To take an action that will knowingly kill civilians is a war crime.
You could then make the claim that every US military action, from George Washington's shelling of Boston in early 1776, Yorktown in 1781, to the Allied D-Day landing which killed 20,000 French Civilians, to the invasion and removal of Taliban and Al Quada forces in Afghanistan were "war crimes", because in each case, although civilians were not the target, it was known that accidental loss of civilian life would be impossible to avoid.

Its a war crime to target civilians as Hezbollah and Humas do. The IDF does not target innocent civilians, they target terrorist organizations who do everything they can to position themselves near civilians in the hopes that Israely strikes against them will also hurt innocent civilians which they and others can then use as a political weapon against Israel. Its not in Israels interest for there to be large numbers of innocent civilian casualties. They do everything they possibly can to reduce the numbers of innocent civilians that are killed or hurt. Hezbollah and Humas in contrast do everything they can to maximize the number of innocent civilians killed or hurt on both sides.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 04:23 PM   #248
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:35 PM
Interesting, I haven't been painting this situation as one of pure anti-Semitism. I am curious as to why this is a subject that should be avoided.

I guess some may think very highly of their posts if the situation "has been explained to me" as some sort of absolute, unquestionable fact. I don't know if you expect others to simply acquiescence to statements just because they were made. Though, I’ve seen plenty of that expectation by others in different threads.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 04:40 PM   #249
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


If there was a time for "bravado" - why is it focused on the Jews now instead of the free run by Hezbollah?
What were your thoughts on my answer to this question?
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 04:44 PM   #250
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


You could then make the claim that every US military action, from George Washington's shelling of Boston in early 1776, Yorktown in 1781, to the Allied D-Day landing which killed 20,000 French Civilians, to the invasion and removal of Taliban and Al Quada forces in Afghanistan were "war crimes", because in each case, although civilians were not the target, it was known that accidental loss of civilian life would be impossible to avoid.

Its a war crime to target civilians as Hezbollah and Humas do. The IDF does not target innocent civilians, they target terrorist organizations who do everything they can to position themselves near civilians in the hopes that Israely strikes against them will also hurt innocent civilians which they and others can then use as a political weapon against Israel. Its not in Israels interest for there to be large numbers of innocent civilian casualties. They do everything they possibly can to reduce the numbers of innocent civilians that are killed or hurt. Hezbollah and Humas in contrast do everything they can to maximize the number of innocent civilians killed or hurt on both sides.
Good points, Sting. I think that Israel has chosen to view this as a war against Lebanon as a whole, rather than just Hezbollah (this would explain the bombing of the airport etc. I doubt Hezbollah members are flying in and out of Lebanon on commercial airliners. Maybe they are, but I doubt it). In a "conventional" war against a nation state the methods used by Israel that unfortunately include civilian deaths would be more understandable.

That's how Israel iseems to be approaching the war, and that, I think is what I have a problem with.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 05:00 PM   #251
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 760
Local Time: 11:35 PM
If there's a full out invasion by Israel into Lebanon, and especially into Beirut, do any of you get the feeling it's what Syria and Iran want? To draw Israeli soldiers into street-to-street battles, where these guerilla fighters think they have a better chance? Make it a war that resembles the urban fighting in Iraq...road-side bombs, suicide bombers, etc., etc.

Or maybe Israel will just park its soldiers outside of the cities, and keep the bombing and blockades going...
__________________
Judah is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 05:12 PM   #252
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


To be frank, the Lebanese gov. can't stop the Israeli army from operating within it's borders either.

Of course, they'll fight back, talk tough, of course they'll "show resolve"--there is a difference between rising up to defend your own country and rising up to defend another (particularly one that invaded and occupied your country for 18 years). People--and gov--are more inclined to do the former than the latter.

Furthermore, the only way that Lebanon would be able to "fight back" if Israel were to roll into Lebanon would be guerrilla warfare. Hezbollah, already being guerrillas, are much harder to "defeat" by the organized government (of either Lebanon or Israel).
Lebanon has a regular, uniformed army. I agree if they wanted any chance of success in a fight with Israel, they would have to abandon this in favor of guerrilla warfare.

Has Lebanon been "invaded" by Hezbollah? We essentially hear both "Yes" and "No". Hezbollah holds some seats in the government. They build schools and other public works. But we also hear that the people of Lebanon do not want Hezbollah. Instead of just writing off the silence as something they could not speak out against, we can question it - especially in light of vocal public challenges against Israel (who is getting rid of their Hezbollah problem).
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 05:26 PM   #253
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Interesting, I haven't been painting this situation as one of pure anti-Semitism. I am curious as to why this is a subject that should be avoided.



you've brought it up in most of your posts especially in the beginning of this thread.


Quote:
I guess some may think very highly of their posts if the situation "has been explained to me" as some sort of absolute, unquestionable fact. I don't know if you expect others to simply acquiescence to statements just because they were made. Though, I’ve seen plenty of that expectation by others in different threads.

have you had any thoughts or responses to the various posters, from All_I_Want to A_Wanderer, who have noted that support for Hezbollah is very low amongst everyday Lebanese? or is that information to be discarded for the sake of defending an earlier statement that was addressed in this post? i don't think your news article about the boasting of a Lebanese army being ready to combat a potential Israeli invasion adds any credibility to the idea that the Lebanese themselves "hate the Jews" and are guilty of "passive" support of Hezbollah terrorism because they haven't used their army to invade a terrorist organization that exists within their borders? do you take the Lebanese president at his word? or does simply presenting it as unquestionable fact help support your earlier contention?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 05:47 PM   #254
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:35 PM
I appreciate the thoughts and opinions expressed here. I find some of the sentiments coming from Lebanon contradictory. Perhaps there is silent cheering for Israel that Hezbollah is being removed. According to accounts from the region, Hezbollah's military capacity has been reduced by 50%. Perhaps at some point they will have the confidence to help finish off Hezbollah.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-21-2006, 05:54 PM   #255
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 760
Local Time: 11:35 PM
I'd like to hear what you guys think is the out here for both sides. What'll it take to settle it? Is there a pragmatic or political middle ground?

Assuming Israel isn't seriously thinking that they won't stop the military action until Hezbollah is completely disbanded, Israel's "out" will need to be a solution that shows they got their kidnapped soldiers back unconditionally.

But Hezbollah will need to show they got something in return. The freeing up of some (20? 100? 1,000?) women and children from Israeli prisoners, or something.

And these kinds of non-agreed-upon positions are usually done through third parties and in an "unlinked" manner. Meaning that yes Hezbollah returns the Israeli soldiers, and then in a completely unrelated (of course) process, Israel frees up some prisoners, perhaps at a later date. Those are all the roll-out politics of these things. And we've seen them before between the Israelis and Palestinians.

Where do you all stand on a resolution to this crisis? nb, sting, do you see unconditional Hezbollah surrender as the only path? irvine, a-wanderer?

[I just can't believe that innocent people are dying when there are political solutions available...solutions that we all know will be employed at some time in this crises; unfortunately, "timing" also becomes a strategy...gotta have a war first...show we're all very serious...then after everybody's pretty scared and violenced out, then we can sit at a third-party table. I find this kind of approach quite horrific.]
__________________

__________________
Judah is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com