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Old 07-19-2006, 06:59 PM   #226
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Historically, Democrats have been the party that strongly supported the current state of Israel. The current conflict is not some recent political manifestation. If the outrage is truely sincere, perhaps we should have looked at our policies for the last 5 decades.
every point is correct

i read the article joyful mentioned yesterday

it was a New York event
with mostly NY dems

it would be political suicide not to voice strong support for Israel in NY

Bill Clinton had a more even-handed approach to MidEast, but still got more support from U. S. Jewish voters than W and the GOP will ever get.

They prefer a stronger separation of Church and State, because Jews know what it is like to be thrown on the fire

and Joyful, in Nov 2008 you can choose either A or B

in 2000 people who voted their principals (Nader) helped to put us in this hell hole

perhaps, vote principals in the primary
vote to save the planet in Nov?
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:34 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


in 2000 people who voted their principals (Nader) helped to put us in this hell hole
I completely disagree with this but that is another argument which will go nowhere.

The problem I have with Hillary (which is certainly not limited to the current crisis in Lebanon) is that I truly think she cares only for her own political advancement. She's got no soul, no spine, no passion about anything she truly believes in. Of course you're right that it would be political suicide in NY not to support Israel--I appreciate that--yet there is a way to show support for Israel without agreeing with its current decimation of Lebanon. But the election is a ways off, lots can happen, and I didn't mean to get off topic with my moment of disgust with Hillary.
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Old 07-19-2006, 09:45 PM   #228
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Any reports of how many Hezbollah deaths?

0

15

300

?
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Old 07-19-2006, 10:14 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


If the people of Lebanon are being manipulated by a Iran and Syria financed Hezbollah, why is the outrage not directed at Iran or Syria, instead of at Israel (other than the obvious)?

I bet there are plenty of Lebanese citizens who are not fans of Hezbollah. I guess the actual pointing of weapons at Israel is better than the potential pointing of weapons at self. If that is a fair and natural response, so be it.
Well, last year, or the year before, the Lebanese came out in thousands protesting against Syria's involvement in Lebanon and in the assasination of the Lebanese ex-PM (or was it ex-President?...something like that). So, they're not shy about standing up for their country.

I think the Lebanese, overall, feel they're hopelessly again caught in the cross-fire of mid-east geopolitics, and are hoping that an eventual Israeli-Palestinian peace will neuter Hezbollah somewhat, or at least undercut its progadandist anti-Israel foundation.
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Old 07-20-2006, 04:56 AM   #230
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One should also note that Hezbollah came out in support of Syria during the Cedar Revolution, it's unfortunate that the Lebanese government is unable to remove them.
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Old 07-20-2006, 05:57 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


If the people of Lebanon are being manipulated by a Iran and Syria financed Hezbollah, why is the outrage not directed at Iran or Syria, instead of at Israel (other than the obvious)?
Other than the obvious???

The obvious problem is the biggest problem here isn't it? Israel, bombing a free country. I had represented Israel in MUNs before, discussed these things with their consulate here for preparation. And don't get me wrong, I understand the Israeli point of view, I just don't accept it.

Let's see, the Lebanese government is unable to disarm Hezbollah. Doesn't matter how much you force them to do it, they can't, its not a matter of willingness, its a matter of capability.

I know Hezbollah is firing missiles into Haifa. So does that mean Israel has the right to bomb Lebanon in return? Do you equate a militant terrorist group with an apparently democratic, sovereign nation? Has Israel sunk that low?

The Lebanese elected this government last year, against the pro-Syrian tendencies within the country. They've shunned the future that lies with Hezbollah and chose something else. It is a good example of Bush's favorite little concept 'democracy in the middle east'.

Now, Israel, just because a radical group has kidnapped a couple of soldiers, is bombing the hell out of a sovereign nation. You can't justify bombing airports, power stations, roads and other infrastructure. You can't justify bombing civilians. If Israel wants to extract Hezbollah and destroy it, bombardment en massé isn't the way to do it. They need to strenghten the Lebanese government to deal with it. Instead they are doing the exact opposite.

The Lebanese people ARE the complete victims here. All those people who are now dead were innocent. All the infrastructure, the brand new airport a nation gave its all to build is now destroyed. Who paid for these things working two jobs sometimes? It wasn't the Israeli army who seems to destroy them at their leisure. Who is going to pay for their rebuilding? Not the government of Israel, who was quick to unleash all kinds of hell against an already fragile country. It's easy to say 'oh they had it coming' if you were born in a country that was never bombed by jetfighters.

Lebanon is weak. Israel is angry. Let them take their anger on the Lebanese. And let us all be silent bystanders, because it is the state of Israel doing this, with the open approval of the US, so it must be ok.

Don't bullshit me.
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:30 AM   #232
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Or direct their anger at the source, Bashir al Assad not the Lebanese people.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:51 AM   #233
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good post, A_I_W.

as i've said before, Israel has every right to exist and to defend itself in the manner in which it chooses. however, the manner in which Israel is currently defending itself is making a bad situation worse and, as always, it's innocent civilians who are suffering and dying.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:55 PM   #234
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Interesting Development

If Lebanon is powerless to stop Hezbollah, why are they so confident that they can stop Israel?

Quote:
Lebanese President Emile Lahoud told CNN the Lebanese army is "ready to defend" the country's territory if Israel launches a full-scale ground invasion.

"Of course, the army is going to defend its land," he said.

While the army "cannot be strong enough to be against Israel on the frontier," he said, "inside Lebanon, they can do a lot."

"We are not going to let anybody take our land. We are not going to let them come back and take it," he added.
Is it a matter of power or willingness?
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:01 PM   #235
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Re: Interesting Development

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
If Lebanon is powerless to stop Hezbollah, why are they so confident that they can stop Israel?



Is it a matter of power or willingness?
What the hell else are they supposed to do? Of course they're going to fight back and talk like they can defend themselves.
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:05 PM   #236
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If you read the comments in this thread, it appears that many felt Lebanon was powerless to stop Hezbollah from operating within their borders. Turns out that this may not really be the case.
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Old 07-21-2006, 02:21 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
If you read the comments in this thread, it appears that many felt Lebanon was powerless to stop Hezbollah from operating within their borders. Turns out that this may not really be the case.


did you read and then think about that article before you posted it?
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Old 07-21-2006, 02:49 PM   #238
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Israel has the right to defend itself, but the way it's defending itself now is totally unacceptable. It's destroying an innocent country.
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:01 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
good post, A_I_W.

as i've said before, Israel has every right to exist and to defend itself in the manner in which it chooses. however, the manner in which Israel is currently defending itself is making a bad situation worse and, as always, it's innocent civilians who are suffering and dying.

Is the Israeli Government committing War Crimes?

To take an action that will knowingly kill civilians is a war crime.
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:13 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
If you read the comments in this thread, it appears that many felt Lebanon was powerless to stop Hezbollah from operating within their borders. Turns out that this may not really be the case.
To be frank, the Lebanese gov. can't stop the Israeli army from operating within it's borders either.

Of course, they'll fight back, talk tough, of course they'll "show resolve"--there is a difference between rising up to defend your own country and rising up to defend another (particularly one that invaded and occupied your country for 18 years). People--and gov--are more inclined to do the former than the latter.

Furthermore, the only way that Lebanon would be able to "fight back" if Israel were to roll into Lebanon would be guerrilla warfare. Hezbollah, already being guerrillas, are much harder to "defeat" by the organized government (of either Lebanon or Israel).
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