MERGED--> all discussion of Israel/Lebanon conflict

[trevster2k]

I agree that the fog of war can lead to friendly fire but sometimes people just fuck up. The bombing of Canadians was a fuck up, not a mistake, a mistake is spelling their, thier.

The shelling of the UN post wasn't a single wayward missile. It was a continuous shelling of the area even after calls were made to stop shelling that specific spot. So this goes beyond a simple wayward missile or a mistake, someone fucked up big time leading to this incident and needless deaths. Someone should be removed from their position as they used poor judgement.

 

[Irvine511]

Once again, If Israel was engaged in unrestricted bombing of Lebanon, there would be 300,000 dead civilians at the moment, not 300.

simply because Israel chooses not to kill 300,000 innocent civilians (which you seem to think is a great act of compassion) does not mean that the present operation is good policy.

 

[Justin24]

You donate less per capita to foreign aid than my country. Would you like those numbers too or do you like living in your own delusion?

You show more compassion?

To whom? Your gay men and women who can't get married? Or maybe to your women who can't get the birth control pill from the pharmacist? Or is it maybe to the countries you like to invade on false premises and lies?

Do you really want a ridiculous pissing contest? Grow up.

I am grown up. How much did you dontate towards the Tsunami??

Maybe you need to stop listening to Facist radio. Oh and woman can get birth control at our planned parent hood thank you very much. Why don't you travel and maybe you will learn.

 

[STING2]

All right, so if the Libertarian party in the US decides to invade Venezuela by kidnapping two Venezuelan soldiers, this would be considered an act of war and Venezuela would be right in launching its rockets if they have any.

If the United States had no way of dealing with this terrorist entity launching attacks from its soil, then the answer would be yes.

The government in Lebanon has no ability to control anything that Hezbollah does. Because of this, Israel must actually perform the security operations that the Lebanese government cannot conduct itself.

 

[nbcrusader]

I am very critical with Israel, not only because they have been slaughtering and killing thousands of civilians who did nothing to them on purpose. If Israel was near to me I would be afraid of this country. Hell, they just kill students who blocked their way. Frankly, when we take off the political agenda glasses, we can compare Israels methods to Chinas methods, remember when China was waltzing down 4,000 students? That´s what the Israelis seem to do, they don´t always get to 4,000, but look at the Gaza strip, look how they deal with Palestinians - people who don´t even have an own state and have always been left to survive in other countries -

The fight of terrorism is a fake excuse. Sure we all wanna win against the terrorists, but what Israel is doing is continuing it´s aggressive policy of expansion. Israel has the best secret service in the world, the Mossad. They would not need to blow up 20 houses to maybe kill a leader of the Hezbollah. They would not need to. But they do it because apparently the Israel leaders have just AS MUCH DISRESPECT FOR LIFE AS THE TERRORISTS.

I skipped the condescending nonsense at the beginning of your post.

As you try to see both sides, perhaps the perspective could take one step further back. You make the conclusion that the citizens of Lebanon have done nothing to Israel (I’m not sure if the “on purpose” was a real qualifier). Consider the citizens of Austria. In other threads, you have discussed the collective responsibility of the citizens of Austria in regards to Nazism. And I take it the citizens today still bear some sense of responsibility towards the same today. This appears to exist even though the average Austrian citizen could not overthrow the Nazis. Now, if Austria feels some level of responsibility for what occurred on its soil 60 years ago, should the same apply to the people of Lebanon today?

By your reference to Mossad, are you suggesting that Israel engage in a campaign of assassination plots to achieve the same results?

And terrorism may be a fake excuse in a country that has no terrorist threat. The pervasive atmosphere of fear that exists (you never know when a Katyusha will arrive) in Israel is far different.

 

[anitram]

Maybe you need to stop listening to Facist radio.

You're too ridiculous for words.

Off to the ignore list you go!

 

[Justin24]

You're too ridiculous for words.

Off to the ignore list you go!

Thats fine. You must agree with censorship.

 

[trevster2k]

^and now thanks to this latest assault on Lebanon, the Lebanese government will be in an even weaker position to control the terrorist organizations

 

[nbcrusader]

^and now thanks to this latest assault on Lebanon, the Lebanese government will be in an even weaker position to control the terrorist organizations

This assumes they had any motive to go along with whatever ability to do so.

 

[STING2]

So which is it, is this Israel's stand against Hezbollah or it's response to the kidnapping of two soldiers whom if they were returned would have supposedly resulted in a cessation of hostilities by Israel?

Fighting terrorism is a black & white issue, the methods of fighting terrorism are hardly black & white. So far using brute force isn't proving to be very effective.

Once again, Hezbollah has done far more over the past couple of years than simply kidnap two soldiers. Insuring that Israely towns are not hit by barrage after barrage of missiles from a 13,000 number stockpile involves pushing and removing the threat from area's where the rockets are in range of your cities. That is one of the chief objectives of the current military operation by Israel which has been limited and restrained in its actions. Because Israel is taking so much care not to cause civilian loss of life, its likely the operation will go on for several more weeks and maybe even months.

Israel understands terrorism, and has effectively dealt with the issue on a level that no other country in the world has, while continuing to grow and advance their country's standard of living and way of life.

 

[hiphop]

2. The UN has several hundred observers along the border, killing 4 of them would not significantly change their capabilities if as alleged, Israel desired to prevent them from gathering information.

3. Committing war crimes is not in Israel's interest and would not help Israel's security situation. It turns much of the world against Israel politically. Targeting a UN observer posts would essentially be the same thing. It serves no purpose, and the cost outweighs any alleged benefit.



The fact is, this was an accident. Accidents happen. How else would you explain the IDF hitting its own troops in a friendly fire incident? Civilians, Observers, and friendly soldiers are at risk in large scale combat operations of being accidentally hit. Israel like several other professional military forces does everything it can to minimize accidental casaulties among non-hostile people or groups.

Bullshit again. You have no clue what you´re talking about.

It seems a UN soldier from my country has been killed.

You can watch the attack here, its the first movie on top. http://iptv.orf.at

Please tell me how this is supposed to be an accident.

Accidents happen, lol. that´s just weak, STING2. I, for one, did not forget about US soldiers attacking journalists in Iraq.

The four UN soldiers asked the Israeli troops TEN TIMES to stop the fire after the first bomb had hit in a distance of 180 metres, CNN reports. In the six hours before they were destroyed, there were fourteen more explosions in the direct neighborhood of the UN post.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.observers/index.html

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/

 

[Justin24]

The UN is worthless and should be disolved.

 

[Justin24]

That video shows nothing except smoke?? No proof.

 

[STING2]

Please show who in this place supports Hezbollah? Obviously, you are blinded by your inability to see a criticism of Israeli response upon civilian infrastructure and people as just that criticism of Israel, not support of Hezbollah. No one opposes Israel, they have the right to defend themselves within reason. The kidnapping of two soldiers and the blowing up of a tank and deaths of the other soldiers is the initial reason why Israel has elevated the intensity of their attacks. Now they have lost even more lives, Lebanon has lost more lives, and when this ends after a few more weeks of attacks according to IDF officials, will anything have changed? Will Israel be any safer from terrorist attacks from Hezbollah or Hamas, nope. Will Lebanon be fractured and become another country requiring international assistance after spending years recovering from a decade of civil war and occupation, yep.

In a few weeks, if the number of Hezbollah rockets that are landing in Israely towns has been substantially reduced or elminated then Israel would have accomplished the most immediate and key objective of the operation, that being the immediate security of its citizens.

Its strange, you claim Israel has the right to defend itself, but claim that Israel's military operation will accomplish nothing. Essentially, your saying that Israel has every right to defend itself, except through the use of its military forces. If the area you live in was under constant bombardment from rockets, what do you think those in charge of security would do to remove the problem?

 

[hiphop]

I skipped the condescending nonsense at the beginning of your post.


By your reference to Mossad, are you suggesting that Israel engage in a campaign of assassination plots to achieve the same results?

Howdy, are we in the respectful mood today.

As to your question, yes I would support activity by Mossad to assassinate terrorists. It makes much more sense than bombing Beirut or Austrians stationed at UN posts.

Now excuse me while I pay respect to the tragic loss of my country.

 

[STING2]

Terrorists are cruel and need to be stopped, we all agree with that. On the other hand Israel has committed so many crimes by international standards in the last 30 or 40 years - and not against terrorists, but against people like me and you who just happened to live in the wrong place - it is really disturbing to see they can get away with all that - just because they have US support.

No, I don´t feel sorry for Israel as a nation.

Its disturbing how many Europeans falsely accuse Israely's of war crimes, considering how Europe treated the Jews for many decades and especially their treatment of them in the 1930s and World War II.

 

[STING2]

then how do acts like bombing beirut's airports and highways relate to this objective? last time i checked, beirut is NOT in south lebanon.

Hezbollah is in Beirut though and missiles have been fired from several of these area's into Israel. In addition, Hezbollah has supplies and munitions widely distributed all across Lebanon. Israel needs to isolate Hezbollah forces in southern Lebanon from resupply.

 

[STING2]

How many billions per year does Israel get in aid from the US? And how many billions does Lebanon get?

Yeah, I thought so.

Israel gets several Billion dollars of aid from the United States each year, which these days is only a tiny fraction of Israel's $160 Billion dollar economy, so the aid they receive does not impact Israel nearly to the degree that you think it does. Plus, Egypt receives just as much aid, and look where Egypt ranks on Human Development Index.

Aid to Lebanon is important, but it can't really effectively be spent and used when Hezbollah is running the show.

 

[trevster2k]

Its strange, you claim Israel has the right to defend itself, but claim that Israel's military operation will accomplish nothing. Essentially, your saying that Israel has every right to defend itself, except through the use of its military forces. If the area you live in was under constant bombardment from rockets, what do you think those in charge of security would do to remove the problem?

Man, you really distort my position. I said, within reason. I said attacks on civilian infrastructures and civilian deaths are not a good thing. Military force is acceptable, blowing up civilian airports, power stations and business is not. And they aren't living under constant bombardment from rockets, presently, yes, since this whole shitstorm started the entire region is a hellhole. They are living under the present THREAT of rockets.

 

[hiphop]

Its disturbing how many Europeans falsely accuse Israely's of war crimes, considering how Europe treated the Jews for many decades and especially their treatment of them in the 1930s and World War II.

It is disturbing how you assume that I have any duty toward the current state of Israel.

The 1930s and WWII have nothing to do with my opinion of Israel today. It is a shame I have to mention that. And it is a shame that you accuse "many Europeans" - meaning me - of not being able to make a difference between then and now.

It angers me beyond comaprison and if I knew your full name, you would be risking a complaint for defamation.

 

[Justin24]

It angers me beyond comaprison and if I knew your full name, you would be risking a complaint for defamation.

Funny how someone says something you don't like and you might report them, yet you insulted me earlier and I have not because I can handle it.

Answer me WHHDTBC, why we never see a single muslim condem terrorist attacks?

 

[STING2]

NOT EVEN ONE. Where do you get this idea from?

US aid to the Palestinian territories totalled something around $400 million per year and that has been halted since Hamas took over. Figures from Coucil on Foreign Relations.

The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries4, even though Israel’s population comprises just .001% of the world’s population and has one the world’s higher per capita incomes.

*

Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 – making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5
*

The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.
*

Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.6
*

Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven – leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan – with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.
*

In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.


Have fun covering those expenses with your taxes, Justin!

How many other countries in the world have been brutally attacked on the first day of their independence by 5 Arab countries and Palestinians who REJECTED a UN Partition plan that would have given them the Palestinian state they claim they are seeking?

How many countries have been in a constant state of war from the past 58 years and have had to fight numerous wars to prevent their country from being wiped off from the face of the map.

Yes, in the early years, Israel was extremely dependent on US aid for lots of things, but look at the extreme situation they were facing and how outnumbered they were.

Since 1980 though, Israel has become less and less dependent on the United States for aid in many area's, including military hardware and equipment, which make up the bulk of Israel's purchases from the United States. Israel now exports double of what it imports from the United States every year.

Missing from your states is the amount of aid the United States gives to countries that at one time were Israel's enemies, and exceed the total aid given to Israel every year.

5 Billion dollars even relative to Israel's annual economic output is a drop in the bucket and relative to US expenditures and economic output, its not even worth mentioning.

You can't have fun covering an expense so small your not even aware of it.

 

[all_i_want]

It seems a UN soldier from my country has been killed.

Well, maybe Austria and the countries of the other UN soldiers should now start bombing Israel. Killing a non-belligerent soldier is certainly worse than kidnapping two soldiers!

Don't you agree?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage. Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side were reported yesterday. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf

 

[yolland]

This thread is getting way overheated and more than a few posts are descending into "Is not!" "Is too!" type interchanges.

Justin--please slow down and take a moment to line up your thoughts before posting. I don't really see what the difference in how Americans and Canadians spend their tax dollars has to do with the morality of Israel's military behavior, but if you're going to make that case (or any other one) it deserves more than a hurled out one-liner.

STING--Please stop rotely citing past European anti-Semitism as if that were relevant to the moral right of present-day Europeans to have a view of this conflict different from your own. It isn't, that's just inflammatory, and you're obviously quite capable of arguing in Israel's defense without resorting to that.

hiphop and everyone else--please lay off packaging your responses in withering scorn. It doesn't add anything to your argument and can only hurt the discussion. Obviously a lot of us have strong feelings about this conflict, but ultimately this is just a discussion we're engaging in here, and it needs to stay civil. If you can't manage that at the moment, perhaps best to step away from it for awhile and come back to make your points later.

Thanks.

 

[STING2]

that puts turkey at #92, and having lived here for 21 years now and seen quite a few places, i find that list laughable, really. even by looking at CIA's factbook, you can see why that list is totally warped. turkey's GDP per capita is double that of armenia, yet armenia is at number 83? i mean, they have NOTHING over there. if your measure of quality of life is having 'stuff' and concerts, well, i am afraid turkey is way ahead of say.. ukraine or romania in those, too.

by that account, its easy to say that the list isnt dead on accurate on lebanon either. actually, with 6500 dollars per capita, id say it is pretty decent in the lifestyle it offers, despite invasions and civil wars. if youre really willing to argue your point that lebanon is really a hellhole and we should all aspire to the wonderful way of life the american empire presents, you ought to put forward better arguments.

Let me explain something, Per Capita GDP does not EQUAL standard of living although it does impact it. The UN Human Development Index considers other factors like Education, Life Expectancy, Health Care, poverty levels, and other statistics that a raw GDP divided by population figure will not tell you about.

There is nothing wrong with the arguements I've put forward.

Take a look at all the different measures that impact standard of living here:

http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indicators.cfm


While no list is perfect, the Human Development Index is widely considered to be the most accurate considering and using the most variables and has often been used by Bono in his humanitarian work.

 

[Justin24]

Looks Like Iran is now helping Hizbolla. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/iran.volunteers.ap/index.html

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

You all may want to refer to the OECD website to obtain figures regarding developmental aid provided by states. My foreign policy class refers to the figures provided by the OECD. In addition we also refer to figures published in the 2004/2005 Strategic Survey published by the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

(link to information regarding 2005 ODA)
http://www.oecd.org/document/40/0,2340,en_2649_37413_36418344_1_1_1_37413,00.html

http://www.iiss.org/

 

[all_i_want]

ive been to armenia, ive been to romania, and both is pretty crappy in terms of way of life. especially armenia, it still has not completely shifted from a soviet style state to a democracy. they have gaps in electricity supply, no luxuries or stores that sell them, even in the capital, erivan. romanians actually come to turkey for work, as house aides or similar jobs. theyre usually paid around 350 dollars a month.

in the end, all those factors cant explain the quality of life in a country. i wouldnt want to live in more than half of those countries you've listed. numbers are not everything. turkish society has a social safety net that most western countries lack. it is not a state program, but it is a network of friends, relatives, who help each other. there are not many homeless people on our streets, compared to the streets of new york, or boston. that kind of qualities are something you can not measure. neither can the UN.

 

[STING2]

your first paragraph is utterly preposterous. if Israel did choose to wipe out the West Bank, then the entire world would condemn the country and the country would lose any and all sympathy. i don't see it as some great act of courage and restraint that Israel hasn't nuked Gaza. it's in Israel's best interests to make other's believe that they are doing all they can to minimize civilian casualties.

it doesn't matter that Israel is doing all it can, the point is, civlians are always, always going to die quite horrible, needless deaths, and Israel is going to be blamed for it, and the cycle continues, and another generation of Israelies has to worry about whether the discotheque is going to blow up tonight and another Palestinian has to worry about whether a rocket is going to fly through his window because a Hamas operative lives two stories above him.

and Hamaz and Hezbollah know this. this is why they try to maximize civlian casualties whenever Israel responds/attacks, which begs the question: if we know that dropping bombs is the worst way to fight terrorism, why do we continue to do so?

The paragraph was not preposterous, but a statement of fact about what Israely conventional forces have the power to do. If Hezbollah and Humas had that power, its obvious they would never exercise the restraint that Israel does.

Israel is blamed for innocent civilian deaths by groups an countries who fail to understand who and what is truely to blame for the conflict. Israel does what it has to do, to defend itself and keep advancing into the future as it had done for 58 years. People in Israel don't stop going to the discothque or rock concerts by U2 and others. Israely's don't stop living and expanding and improving their way of life. On the otherside, Hezbollah and Humas only continue to engage in actions which ruin the lives of the people they claim to be helping and does nothing to stop Israel's advancement into the future.

Dropping bombs is one of several effective ways to fight terrorism, and in this case, a necessary one given the immediate threat to Israely cities. The Israely's are essentially fighting a large military force on the border and need to clear a 20 mile area in order to prevent Northern Israely towns from being hit by Hezbollah rockets. This is a necessary and effective solution for this immediate problem.