MERGED--> all discussion of Israel/Lebanon conflict

[Justin24]

Well the new armies of Arab nations do not wear camo they wear street cloths to blend in with the rest of society. With so many nukes, Chemical and biological weapons in this world, The West and Islam could lead to WW3.

Answer me this for those who appose israel but are in support of Hizbolla? Why do you support them when they are in a an unfair fight that they started by invading and kidnapping two israeli soldiers?

 

[trevster2k]

Answer me this for those who appose israel but are in support of Hizbolla? Why do you support them when they are in a an unfair fight that they started by invading and kidnapping two israeli soldiers?

Please show who in this place supports Hezbollah? Obviously, you are blinded by your inability to see a criticism of Israeli response upon civilian infrastructure and people as just that criticism of Israel, not support of Hezbollah. No one opposes Israel, they have the right to defend themselves within reason. The kidnapping of two soldiers and the blowing up of a tank and deaths of the other soldiers is the initial reason why Israel has elevated the intensity of their attacks. Now they have lost even more lives, Lebanon has lost more lives, and when this ends after a few more weeks of attacks according to IDF officials, will anything have changed? Will Israel be any safer from terrorist attacks from Hezbollah or Hamas, nope. Will Lebanon be fractured and become another country requiring international assistance after spending years recovering from a decade of civil war and occupation, yep.

 

[hiphop]

So you put primary blame on Israel. I feel sorry for the Israelies, because there so hated by most of the middle east and people like you since you think all israelies do is KILL KILL KILL. I never said drop a nuke and would not recommend it. Your real solution would be to go up them an say Brother no more war give me a HUG.

I don´t feel sorry for Israel as a nation. I feel sorry for Israelis who get caught up in this ugly fight. If I was born there, I would have moved out long ago.

I have been discussing with Israelis about their methods and was shocked by their extremist responses. Many Israelis (not all, I suppose, but surely a good percentage) seem to think they can just take "what belongs to them". Then they go off to explain you about how the situation was hundreds or thousands of years ago and how they have a right on their promised land. While they bicker, they will quote all the bad activities of their neighboring nations while not mentioning their own atrocities, and if you mention them it was all "defense", or "response". You´d really think they would have learned something in their rich and often sad history. But they treat minority groups cruelly. The Palestinian people for example did nothing at all against the Israelis. Note that I´m saying the people. Not the leaders, of Arafat, or terrorists. They did their part. They are guilty too.

Everybody continues to babble they fight for their own freedom. In reality they aren´t, it is a power play between leaders who shamelessly use their power, at times given to them in elections, to continue dirty arms deals, drug deals, corruption, oil and hateful, racist attacks on civilians who have nothing whatsoever to do with the crimes these leaders are guilty of.

I know this might cause a great unrest, but some Israeli Prime Ministers have been behaving and are continuing to behave like their worst enemies in history. The continuing US support for Israel, a country that has had a nuclear bomb for decades (in compare to Hussein or Iran) and just doesn´t use it beacuse they would kill themselves, has led to the hateful attacks against Americans, i.e. burning flags.

Shit, if your house that you have built up in Gaza is destroyed by an Israeli tank that was financed by and/or imported from the US, how would you feel?

Terrorists are cruel and need to be stopped, we all agree with that. On the other hand Israel has committed so many crimes by international standards in the last 30 or 40 years - and not against terrorists, but against people like me and you who just happened to live in the wrong place - it is really disturbing to see they can get away with all that - just because they have US support.

No, I don´t feel sorry for Israel as a nation.

 

[all_i_want]

what i am curious about is what israel is hoping to achieve at the end. what is the objective of this war? is it to get hezbollah to release the captives? is it to destroy hezbollah? is it to destroy lebanon? what are they exactly trying to pull off here?

 

[nbcrusader]

Israel is trying to re-establish the buffer zone along its northern border. The UN was supposed to take this role. They've failed miserably.

 

[Justin24]

ughhh The middle east is just one fucked up place period! Thats all I know.

 

[all_i_want]

Israel is trying to re-establish the buffer zone along its northern border. The UN was supposed to take this role. They've failed miserably.

then how do acts like bombing beirut's airports and highways relate to this objective? last time i checked, beirut is NOT in south lebanon.

 

[trevster2k]

ughhh The middle east is just one fucked up place period! Thats all I know.

Now, I'm certain we can all agree on that. And their are no easy solutions, just hard roads.

 

[all_i_want]

id like to quote clausewitz on that: "the solution is simple, but not easy."

 

[Justin24]

Now, I'm certain we can all agree on that. And their are no easy solutions, just hard roads.

Peace will never work. And this problem will continue, until man's own destruction and we are heading that way and you know if it happens at least we wont have to worry about a DAMN thing anymore.

 

[STING2]

I have a friend who is part Lebanese, he goes to Beirut every once in a while, and that city does not offer a crap standard of living. Of course, when it is not being bombarded.

Here is the latest Human Development Index from the United Nations which ranks the standard of living of 177 countries and territories around the world. Notice where Lebanon ranks relative to some countries and other area's of the world that are regarded as having a poor standard of living.



1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Australia
4 Luxembourg
5 Canada

6 Sweden
7 Switzerland
8 Ireland
9 Belgium
10 United States

11 Japan
12 Netherlands
13 Finland
14 Denmark
15 United Kingdom

16 France
17 Austria
18 Italy
19 New Zealand
20 Germany

21 Spain
22 Hong Kong, China (SAR)
23 Israel
24 Greece
25 Singapore

26 Slovenia
27 Portugal
28 Korea, Rep. of
29 Cyprus
30 Barbados

31 Czech Republic
32 Malta
33 Brunei Darussalam
34 Argentina
35 Hungary

36 Poland
37 Chile
38 Estonia
39 Lithuania
40 Qatar

41 United Arab Emirates
42 Slovakia
43 Bahrain
44 Kuwait
45 Croatia

46 Uruguay
47 Costa Rica
48 Latvia
49 Saint Kitts and Nevis
50 Bahamas

51 Seychelles
52 Cuba
53 Mexico
54 Tonga
55 Bulgaria

56 Panama
57 Trinidad and Tobago
58 Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
59 Macedonia, TFYR
60 Antigua and Barbuda

61 Malaysia
62 Russian Federation
63 Brazil
64 Romania
65 Mauritius

66 Grenada
67 BELARUS
68 Bosnia and Herzegovina
69 Colombia
70 Dominica

71 Oman
72 ALBANIA
73 Thailand
74 Samoa (Western)
75 Venezuela

76 Saint Lucia
77 Saudi Arabia
78 Ukraine
79 Peru
80 Kazakhstan

81 LEBANON
82 Ecuador
83 Armenia
84 Philippines
85 China

86 Suriname
87 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
88 Paraguay
89 Tunisia
90 Jordan

91 Belize
92 Fiji
93 Sri Lanka
94 Turkey
95 Dominican Republic

96 Maldives
97 Turkmenistan
98 Jamaica
99 Iran, Islamic Rep. of
100 Georgia

101 Azerbaijan
102 OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES
103 Algeria
104 El Salvador
105 Cape Verde

106 Syrian Arab Republic
107 Guyana
108 Viet Nam
109 Kyrgyzstan
110 Indonesia

111 Uzbekistan
112 Nicaragua
113 Bolivia
114 Mongolia
115 Moldova, Rep. of

116 Honduras
117 Guatemala
118 Vanuatu
119 Egypt
120 South Africa

121 Equatorial Guinea
122 Tajikistan
123 Gabon
124 Morocco
125 Namibia

126 São Tomé and Principe
127 India
128 Solomon Islands
129 Myanmar
130 Cambodia

131 Botswana
132 Comoros
133 Lao People's Dem. Rep.
134 Bhutan
135 Pakistan

136 Nepal
137 Papua New Guinea
138 Ghana
139 Bangladesh
140 Timor-Leste

141 Sudan
142 Congo
143 Togo
144 Uganda
145 Zimbabwe

146 Madagascar
147 Swaziland
148 Cameroon
149 Lesotho
150 Djibouti

151 Yemen
152 Mauritania
153 Haiti
154 Kenya
155 Gambia

156 Guinea
157 Senegal
158 Nigeria
159 Rwanda
160 Angola

161 Eritrea
162 Benin
163 Côte d'Ivoire
164 Tanzania, U. Rep. of
165 Malawi

166 Zambia
167 Congo, Dem. Rep. of the
168 Mozambique
169 Burundi
170 Ethiopia

171 Central African Republic
172 Guinea-Bissau
173 Chad
174 Mali
175 Burkina Faso

176 Sierra Leone
177 Niger




If you have the money to fly to Beirut, then you'll obviously have the money to stay in a nice part of town, and its also true that Beirut may have a higher standard of living relative to the country side. Still, at #81, Lebanon is not very far ahead of the Palestinian occupied territories at #102. Its behind the Russian Federation at #62 which as recently as the late 1990s saw poverty levels not seen in Russia since the start of the 20th century. Israel has a standard of living on the level of most Western European countries.

 

[all_i_want]

Peace will never work. And this problem will continue, until man's own destruction and we are heading that way and you know if it happens at least we wont have to worry about a DAMN thing anymore.

love the fatalist attitude lets all just lie down and die already.

 

[Justin24]

love the fatalist attitude lets all just lie down and die already.

LOL thanks. Why not who know, if we all lie down and wait to die then we have peace!!! hahahahahahahahahaha

 

[hiphop]

LOL thanks. Why not who know, if we all lie down and wait to die then we have peace!!! hahahahahahahahahaha

true dat, and the animals and plants will reign this beautiful blue planet again.


there´s nothing to do, mankind is the worst race that could happen to this planet.

 

[anitram]

Israel has a standard of living on the level of most Western European countries.

How many billions per year does Israel get in aid from the US? And how many billions does Lebanon get?

Yeah, I thought so.

 

[Justin24]

How many Billions are sent to Palestine?? And how much of that went into Arafats pocket?????????????? Thought so. At least Israel makes the cities look nice and not shit holes like Palestine.

 

[STING2]

The U N has been critical of Israel's tactics.

They did not want the UN observing Israeli War Crimes.

1. The a single UN observer posts along the border is not positioned to make any sort of accurate observation of alleged Israeli "war crimes". Any investigation of war crimes requires on site investigations and forensic teams to properly determine what happened in such a case.

2. The UN has several hundred observers along the border, killing 4 of them would not significantly change their capabilities if as alleged, Israel desired to prevent them from gathering information.

3. Committing war crimes is not in Israel's interest and would not help Israel's security situation. It turns much of the world against Israel politically. Targeting a UN observer posts would essentially be the same thing. It serves no purpose, and the cost outweighs any alleged benefit.



The fact is, this was an accident. Accidents happen. How else would you explain the IDF hitting its own troops in a friendly fire incident? Civilians, Observers, and friendly soldiers are at risk in large scale combat operations of being accidentally hit. Israel like several other professional military forces does everything it can to minimize accidental casaulties among non-hostile people or groups.

 

[joyfulgirl]

At least Israel makes the cities look nice and not shit holes like Palestine.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[STING2]

With UN "peace keeping" forces in Southern Lebanon for years, were they not complicit with Hezbollah's military build up in the area?

As an observer force, I would say no. Plus their numbers and organization do not allow them to engage Hezbollah in any meaningful way. The hitting of the UN observer posts was an unfortunate accident, just like when US air power hit Canadian forces in Afghanistan a few years ago.

 

[Justin24]

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Explain to me why I am wrong then???

 

[anitram]

How many Billions are sent to Palestine??

NOT EVEN ONE. Where do you get this idea from?

US aid to the Palestinian territories totalled something around $400 million per year and that has been halted since Hamas took over. Figures from Coucil on Foreign Relations.

The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries4, even though Israel’s population comprises just .001% of the world’s population and has one the world’s higher per capita incomes.

*

Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 – making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5
*

The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.
*

Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.6
*

Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven – leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan – with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.
*

In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.


Have fun covering those expenses with your taxes, Justin!

 

[all_i_want]

Here is the latest Human Development Index from the United Nations which ranks the standard of living of 177 countries and territories around the world. Notice where Lebanon ranks relative to some countries and other area's of the world that are regarded as having a poor standard of living.



1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Australia
4 Luxembourg
5 Canada

6 Sweden
7 Switzerland
8 Ireland
9 Belgium
10 United States

11 Japan
12 Netherlands
13 Finland
14 Denmark
15 United Kingdom

16 France
17 Austria
18 Italy
19 New Zealand
20 Germany

21 Spain
22 Hong Kong, China (SAR)
23 Israel
24 Greece
25 Singapore

26 Slovenia
27 Portugal
28 Korea, Rep. of
29 Cyprus
30 Barbados

31 Czech Republic
32 Malta
33 Brunei Darussalam
34 Argentina
35 Hungary

36 Poland
37 Chile
38 Estonia
39 Lithuania
40 Qatar

41 United Arab Emirates
42 Slovakia
43 Bahrain
44 Kuwait
45 Croatia

46 Uruguay
47 Costa Rica
48 Latvia
49 Saint Kitts and Nevis
50 Bahamas

51 Seychelles
52 Cuba
53 Mexico
54 Tonga
55 Bulgaria

56 Panama
57 Trinidad and Tobago
58 Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
59 Macedonia, TFYR
60 Antigua and Barbuda

61 Malaysia
62 Russian Federation
63 Brazil
64 Romania
65 Mauritius

66 Grenada
67 BELARUS
68 Bosnia and Herzegovina
69 Colombia
70 Dominica

71 Oman
72 ALBANIA
73 Thailand
74 Samoa (Western)
75 Venezuela

76 Saint Lucia
77 Saudi Arabia
78 Ukraine
79 Peru
80 Kazakhstan

81 LEBANON
82 Ecuador
83 Armenia
84 Philippines
85 China

86 Suriname
87 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
88 Paraguay
89 Tunisia
90 Jordan

91 Belize
92 Fiji
93 Sri Lanka
94 Turkey
95 Dominican Republic

96 Maldives
97 Turkmenistan
98 Jamaica
99 Iran, Islamic Rep. of
100 Georgia

101 Azerbaijan
102 OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES
103 Algeria
104 El Salvador
105 Cape Verde

106 Syrian Arab Republic
107 Guyana
108 Viet Nam
109 Kyrgyzstan
110 Indonesia

111 Uzbekistan
112 Nicaragua
113 Bolivia
114 Mongolia
115 Moldova, Rep. of

116 Honduras
117 Guatemala
118 Vanuatu
119 Egypt
120 South Africa

121 Equatorial Guinea
122 Tajikistan
123 Gabon
124 Morocco
125 Namibia

126 São Tomé and Principe
127 India
128 Solomon Islands
129 Myanmar
130 Cambodia

131 Botswana
132 Comoros
133 Lao People's Dem. Rep.
134 Bhutan
135 Pakistan

136 Nepal
137 Papua New Guinea
138 Ghana
139 Bangladesh
140 Timor-Leste

141 Sudan
142 Congo
143 Togo
144 Uganda
145 Zimbabwe

146 Madagascar
147 Swaziland
148 Cameroon
149 Lesotho
150 Djibouti

151 Yemen
152 Mauritania
153 Haiti
154 Kenya
155 Gambia

156 Guinea
157 Senegal
158 Nigeria
159 Rwanda
160 Angola

161 Eritrea
162 Benin
163 Côte d'Ivoire
164 Tanzania, U. Rep. of
165 Malawi

166 Zambia
167 Congo, Dem. Rep. of the
168 Mozambique
169 Burundi
170 Ethiopia

171 Central African Republic
172 Guinea-Bissau
173 Chad
174 Mali
175 Burkina Faso

176 Sierra Leone
177 Niger




If you have the money to fly to Beirut, then you'll obviously have the money to stay in a nice part of town, and its also true that Beirut may have a higher standard of living relative to the country side. Still, at #81, Lebanon is not very far ahead of the Palestinian occupied territories at #102. Its behind the Russian Federation at #62 which as recently as the late 1990s saw poverty levels not seen in Russia since the start of the 20th century. Israel has a standard of living on the level of most Western European countries.

that puts turkey at #92, and having lived here for 21 years now and seen quite a few places, i find that list laughable, really. even by looking at CIA's factbook, you can see why that list is totally warped. turkey's GDP per capita is double that of armenia, yet armenia is at number 83? i mean, they have NOTHING over there. if your measure of quality of life is having 'stuff' and concerts, well, i am afraid turkey is way ahead of say.. ukraine or romania in those, too.

by that account, its easy to say that the list isnt dead on accurate on lebanon either. actually, with 6500 dollars per capita, id say it is pretty decent in the lifestyle it offers, despite invasions and civil wars. if youre really willing to argue your point that lebanon is really a hellhole and we should all aspire to the wonderful way of life the american empire presents, you ought to put forward better arguments.

 

[Justin24]

At least we donate more unlike your country, we show more compassion, unlike your PM who could not even afford 1% of your national budget to help africa. So palestine gets lets say 300 million. 200 million is probably in some swis account for Arafat's wife to live on.

 

[STING2]

What do you know about Lebanon? Have you ever been there to visit the place?

What do you know about UN peace keeping forces? Have you ever served there?


I have never been to Lebanon, nor have I served in the peace keeping forces. So it´s very difficult to say what´s right and what´s wrong. These people have been fighting for decades. You can´t solve the conflict for them.

I try to see both sides. Terrorism is a real threat, but just like the US Israel *thinks (do they?) they can beat terrorism with bombs and tanks.

I am very critical with Israel, not only because they have been slaughtering and killing thousands of civilians who did nothing to them on purpose. If Israel was near to me I would be afraid of this country. Hell, they just kill students who blocked their way. Frankly, when we take off the political agenda glasses, we can compare Israels methods to Chinas methods, remember when China was waltzing down 4,000 students? That´s what the Israelis seem to do, they don´t always get to 4,000, but look at the Gaza strip, look how they deal with Palestinians - people who don´t even have an own state and have always been left to survive in other countries -

The fight of terrorism is a fake excuse. Sure we all wanna win against the terrorists, but what Israel is doing is continuing it´s aggressive policy of expansion. Israel has the best secret service in the world, the Mossad. They would not need to blow up 20 houses to maybe kill a leader of the Hezbollah. They would not need to. But they do it because apparently the Israel leaders have just AS MUCH DISRESPECT FOR LIFE AS THE TERRORISTS.

If Israel wanted to, it could use its full military strength to target and overrun just about every square inch of Lebanon and inflict civilian casualties approaching several hundred thousand people in as little as two weeks. It would take Israel only a few weeks to wipe out the populations of people that exist in the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon if they chose to do that.

Israel does everything it can to reduce the accidental loss of civilian life. They do not target civilians in stark contrast to Humas and Hezbollah. Targeting and killing civilians does not serve Israely interest in any way shape or form.

 

[Irvine511]

STING -- have you ever posted something that you haven't already posted before?

 

[STING2]

And so what? You think the terrorists say "Ah we´ll all gather on a basketball field so they can get us easily".

No, the duty of the Isrealis would be to avoid unnecessary loss of life. That means a completely different operation carried out by small anti-terror special forces who kill the most important terrorists one by one. But nooo, they have to bomb the whole place.

Blame who you want, both sides don´t give a fuck for civilians.

Once again, If Israel was engaged in unrestricted bombing of Lebanon, there would be 300,000 dead civilians at the moment, not 300.

 

[anitram]

At least we donate more unlike your country, we show more compassion, unlike your PM who could not even afford 1% of your national budget to help africa. So palestine gets lets say 300 million. 200 million is probably in some swis account for Arafat's wife to live on.

You donate less per capita to foreign aid than my country. Would you like those numbers too or do you like living in your own delusion?

You show more compassion?

To whom? Your gay men and women who can't get married? Or maybe to your women who can't get the birth control pill from the pharmacist? Or is it maybe to the countries you like to invade on false premises and lies?

Do you really want a ridiculous pissing contest? Grow up.

 

[STING2]

Technically, this is not an invasion.

Read some more dictionaries will you? An invasion of a country is a different thing. One country invades another country. Single terrorists can´t "invade". Lebanon as a country did not invade Israel. Also, the kidnapping of two soldiers would hardly be considered an act of war. It would be considered a terrorist activity.

Hezbollah has actively engaged in attempts to capture Israely soldiers as well as rocket northern Israely towns for over a year now. Israel has every right to remove the rocket threat to its northern towns and defend its civilian population. One could argue that Israel should have done this earlier, but you can't argue with Israel's right to defend itself. If anything the bombing campaign and ground operations have been to small, to slow, and to restrained.

 

[Irvine511]

If Israel wanted to, it could use its full military strength to target and overrun just about every square inch of Lebanon and inflict civilian casualties approaching several hundred thousand people in as little as two weeks. It would take Israel only a few weeks to wipe out the populations of people that exist in the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon if they chose to do that.

Israel does everything it can to reduce the accidental loss of civilian life. They do not target civilians in stark contrast to Humas and Hezbollah. Targeting and killing civilians does not serve Israely interest in any way shape or form.

your first paragraph is utterly preposterous. if Israel did choose to wipe out the West Bank, then the entire world would condemn the country and the country would lose any and all sympathy. i don't see it as some great act of courage and restraint that Israel hasn't nuked Gaza. it's in Israel's best interests to make other's believe that they are doing all they can to minimize civilian casualties.

it doesn't matter that Israel is doing all it can, the point is, civlians are always, always going to die quite horrible, needless deaths, and Israel is going to be blamed for it, and the cycle continues, and another generation of Israelies has to worry about whether the discotheque is going to blow up tonight and another Palestinian has to worry about whether a rocket is going to fly through his window because a Hamas operative lives two stories above him.

and Hamaz and Hezbollah know this. this is why they try to maximize civlian casualties whenever Israel responds/attacks, which begs the question: if we know that dropping bombs is the worst way to fight terrorism, why do we continue to do so?

 

[STING2]

Woooow, the General speaks up! Well its great if you believe him. Sure enough, he´s a fine man, directing the murdering and slaughtering of hundreds of civilians.

What you have described before is the general problem with terrorism. When you kill one, another one will be appointed. But tell me, and please use your brain, is the bombing of whole areas of any great use? Also when you bomb all the area in an attempt to hit many terrorists, there will be some new ones the very next day.

So the best solution for you would probably be to drop a nuclear bomb on the whole region? Then they will all be quiet. Like you say, civilian casualities are sometimes unavoidable.


I ask you sincerily, how do you want to solve this problem?

When I think of it, the best possible method is to take the terrorists out one by one. There will be very few civilian deaths. You might not get rid of the terrorists, but you won´t until you are not willing to solve the deep rooted problems in the societies. And even then some terrorists will survive and continue to kill poor souls and disturb freedom talks. Still, this is the best method.

Or is it, in your opinion?

Thats basically the method Israel is currently following. The number of civilian deaths is tiny considering what it could be if Israel launched a completely unrestricted bombing campaign of Lebanon.