MERGED--> all discussion of Israel/Lebanon conflict

[maycocksean]

Boy, but I sure hope Sting2's scenario pans out.

 

[financeguy]

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=9381

snippet..

"Gentle reader, do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon? Israel has ordered all the villagers to clear out. Israel then destroys their homes and murders the fleeing villagers. That way there is no one to come back and nothing to which to return, making it easier for Israel to grab the territory, just as Israel has been stealing Palestine from the Palestinians.

Do you know that one-third of the Lebanese civilians murdered by Israel's attacks on civilian residential districts are children? That is the report from Jan Egeland, the emergency relief coordinator for the UN. He says it is impossible for help to reach the wounded and those buried in rubble, because Israeli air strikes have blown up all the bridges and roads. Considering how often (almost always) Israel misses Hezbollah targets and hits civilian ones, one might think that Israeli fire is being guided by US satellites and US military GPS. Don't be surprised at US complicity. Why would the puppet be any less evil than the puppet master?

Of course, you don't know these things, because the US print and TV media do not report them.

Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice. Bush is very proud of his firmness. He is enjoying Israel's rampage and wishes he could do the same thing in Iraq.

Does it make you a Proud American that "your" president gave Israel the green light to drop bombs on convoys of villagers fleeing from Israeli shelling, on residential neighborhoods in the capital of Beirut and throughout Lebanon, on hospitals, on power plants, on food production and storage, on ports, on civilian airports, on bridges, on roads, on every piece of infrastructure on which civilized life depends? Are you a Proud American? Or are you an Israeli puppet?"

 

[verte76]

financeguy, Bush sure as hell isn't making me proud to be an American these days. Israel has gone way too far with Lebanon, there are too many civilian casualties, this has got to be stopped.

 

[Bluer White]

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=9381"Gentle reader, do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon?

Ethnic cleansing? Ridiculous.

"your" president gave Israel the green light to drop bombs on convoys of villagers fleeing from Israeli shelling

Is this true? Or just demonization of America?

 

[maycocksean]

^Financeguy, while I feel that Israel is trying to kill a fly with a shotgun, the snippet you quoted sounds suspect to me. It seems very heavily biased, and to be frank, sounds like kind of obvious anti-Israel, and possibly anti-American propaganda.

IMHO.

 

[deep]

^Financeguy, ... and possibly anti-American propaganda.

IMHO.

as an American I do not find the issues raised, or the point of view of the article anti-American

is it anti current Administration policies?
yes
that is not anti-American

 

[To-Ho]

GO ISRAEL!!!

the y put up with enough shit, i support 'em 100%.

This is not a sporting event.This is about life and death.

 

[deep]

More fun than a sporting event

in a sporting event the outcome
is most times in doubt

in this case we know that terrorists
like the woman below will get what she deserves

there are also pictures of 4 year old terrorists that have been burned alive

but I won't bother to post
let's just cheer on the liquefaction of these terrorists
no matter how they disguise themselves.

 

[STING2]

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=9381

snippet..

"Gentle reader, do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon? Israel has ordered all the villagers to clear out. Israel then destroys their homes and murders the fleeing villagers. That way there is no one to come back and nothing to which to return, making it easier for Israel to grab the territory, just as Israel has been stealing Palestine from the Palestinians.

Do you know that one-third of the Lebanese civilians murdered by Israel's attacks on civilian residential districts are children? That is the report from Jan Egeland, the emergency relief coordinator for the UN. He says it is impossible for help to reach the wounded and those buried in rubble, because Israeli air strikes have blown up all the bridges and roads. Considering how often (almost always) Israel misses Hezbollah targets and hits civilian ones, one might think that Israeli fire is being guided by US satellites and US military GPS. Don't be surprised at US complicity. Why would the puppet be any less evil than the puppet master?

Of course, you don't know these things, because the US print and TV media do not report them.

Because Bush is so proud of himself, you do know that he has blocked every effort to stop the Israeli slaughter of Lebanese civilians. Bush has told the UN "NO." Bush has told the European Union "NO." Bush has told the pro-American Lebanese prime minister "NO." Twice. Bush is very proud of his firmness. He is enjoying Israel's rampage and wishes he could do the same thing in Iraq.

Does it make you a Proud American that "your" president gave Israel the green light to drop bombs on convoys of villagers fleeing from Israeli shelling, on residential neighborhoods in the capital of Beirut and throughout Lebanon, on hospitals, on power plants, on food production and storage, on ports, on civilian airports, on bridges, on roads, on every piece of infrastructure on which civilized life depends? Are you a Proud American? Or are you an Israeli puppet?"

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, they could kill every civilian in Lebanon. But Israel did not want to kill a single civilian and does not target them. The fact is, its impossible to engage in necessary military action without there being accidental civilian deaths.

I wonder what the above website would have said about D-Day? You had 20,000 French Civilians killed in a 10 day period, with probably over 6,000 of them being childern. But the civilians in France were not the target. These casualties were unfortunate accidents resulting from a necessary military operation.

If Israel had not been as careful as they have been so far, you would probably have 30,000 dead civilians as opposed to just 300. Think about the scale of what is being done here.

 

[STING2]

More fun than a sporting event

in a sporting event the outcome
is most times in doubt



but I won't bother to post
let's just cheer on the liquefaction of these terrorists
no matter how they disguise themselves.

If Hezbollah had disarmed as required by the UN Security Council Resolution and stopped its unprovoked attacks against Israel, this whole situation would not exist.

If a place like San Francisco was hit by 1,500 rockets, I'm sure even there, the majority of citizens there would favor a military response to stop the rocket attacks.

 

[Screwtape2]

I am truly digusted by the ease in which some people write this off as a "sporting event." These people in Lebanon, Iraq and Afganistan aren't all terrorists and the ones who are have become so out of the conditions they live in. I was watching CNN and an analyst was talking about the possible invasion strategy for Isreal as if it were some kind of football you'd draw up in the mud.
In truth, the western world is the true terrorist.
People around the world should hate us. The posters that have suggested that this is some kind of game really need to take a closer look at the world. If you were born in these peoples' world you would probably be the dead terrorists that you seem to enjoy seeing pictures of so much.

 

[STING2]

I am truly digusted by the ease in which some people write this off as a "sporting event." These people in Lebanon, Iraq and Afganistan aren't all terrorists and the ones who are have become so out of the conditions they live in. I was watching CNN and an analyst was talking about the possible invasion strategy for Isreal as if it were some kind of football you'd draw up in the mud.
In truth, the western world is the true terrorist.
People around the world should hate us. The posters that have suggested that this is some kind of game really need to take a closer look at the world. If you were born in these peoples' world you would probably be the dead terrorists that you seem to enjoy seeing pictures of so much.

The only people refering to this as a sporting event or a game are those that seem to be so strongly opposed to what Israel is doing. I don't recall anyone who supports Israel's right to defend itself refer to it as a game or a sporting event.

 

[Screwtape2]

No, STING2 watch CNN, my post was directed as much at them as to anyone in this post. They have treated this thing like a game. If I've misinterpreted the posts of people here, I'm sorry but it seems like soem of them are treating like a game. I just get tired of people dehumanizing terrorists. Some of these posts have just gotten to me.

 

[deep]

Israel 'breaking humanitarian law'

Sunday 23 July 2006 1:53 PM GMT



The United Nations emergency relief coordinator has accused Israel of breaking humanitarian law as he toured ruins in Beirut left by devastating Israeli air raids on residential areas.

Jan Egeland spoke during a visit to the Haret Hreik district of Beirut where Israeli air raids had struck just hours before, destroying a headquarters of Hezbollah.

"It is horrific. I did not know it was block after block of houses … It makes it a violation of humanitarian law," Egeland told journalists.

He said it was hard to distinguish between military and civilian targets in the predominantly Shia Muslim neighbourhood.

Egeland said that the violence and destruction had to end. "It is costing too many lives and it will not lead to a solution in the south," he said.

The UN official was in the region ahead of international appeal for aid for Lebanon. “It will be a large appeal. It's got to be more than $100 million,” he said.

His comments came after two Israeli were killed in a Hezbollah rocket attack on Haifa as Israel's airforce continued to pound Lebanon for a 12th successive day.

Aid corridors

Egeland plans to travel to Israel for further discussions on opening aid corridors.

Israel has said it will allow aid in through Beirut's port, but it will be difficult for it to reach the people who need it as roads, bridges and trucks have been targeted by the Israeli air force.

Thousands of people have fled
their homes during the conflict
At least 600,000 people have now been displaced by the fighting, according to the World Health Organisation.

Envoys from three European countries have joined the diplomatic effort to end the fighting between Hezbollah and Israel.

Ministers from France, Germany and Britain held separate talks with Israeli officials ahead of the arrival in the region of US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice on Sunday.

"My question to Jerusalem and Beirut is the same," said Philippe Douste-Blazy, the French foreign minister. "How do we reach a ceasefire as quickly as possible?"

Rocket fire

Douste-Blazy was visiting the Israeli city of Haifa when it came under Hezbollah rocket fire that killed two people.

Israeli attacks have killed some 370 Lebanese, most of them civilians, while 37 Israelis have died during the conflict, 17 of them civilians killed by Hezbollah rockets in the north of the country.

 

[STING2]

No, STING2 watch CNN, my post was directed as much at them as to anyone in this post. They have treated this thing like a game. If I've misinterpreted the posts of people here, I'm sorry but it seems like soem of them are treating like a game. I just get tired of people dehumanizing terrorists. Some of these posts have just gotten to me.

It might be better to ask them to explain their posts rather than automatically acuse them of refering to a serious situation like this as a game.

 

[nbcrusader]

Deep,

You never answered my question. How many Hezbollah have been killed?

1

50

200

370

????

 

[Earnie Shavers]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/wh...-flee-the-south/2006/07/23/1153593216876.html

 

[A_Wanderer]

More fun than a sporting event

in a sporting event the outcome
is most times in doubt

in this case we know that terrorists
like the woman below will get what she deserves

there are also pictures of 4 year old terrorists that have been burned alive

but I won't bother to post
let's just cheer on the liquefaction of these terrorists
no matter how they disguise themselves.

They are being used as human shields, where does the burden of guilt go?

 

[deep]

Deep,

You never answered my question. How many Hezbollah have been killed?

1

50

200

370

????

too many

too many Israelis

too many settlers in occupied territories

too many PLO

too many hamas

too many IDFs

too many people


the pot is boiling over

turning up the temperature will only
get more killing

the temperature needs to be turned down

 

[maycocksean]

The only people refering to this as a sporting event or a game are those that seem to be so strongly opposed to what Israel is doing. I don't recall anyone who supports Israel's right to defend itself refer to it as a game or a sporting event.

Actually, I think the sporting event reference was in regards to the following post by a supporter of Israel:

Originally posted by JMScoopy
GO ISRAEL!!!

the y put up with enough shit, i support 'em 100%.

 

[maycocksean]

as an American I do not find the issues raised, or the point of view of the article anti-American

is it anti current Administration policies?
yes
that is not anti-American

Agreed. I'm anti-current Administration's policies as well, as I'm sure you know from many of my previous posts. But surely, you can't believe that the article fiananceguy post represents a thoughtful, nuanced look at the complexities of the current situation? Surely, you must call into question the hyperbolic language and thus wonder whether the "facts" being reported in that article are really true.

 

[STING2]

Actually, I think the sporting event reference was in regards to the following post by a supporter of Israel:

Originally posted by JMScoopy
GO ISRAEL!!!

the y put up with enough shit, i support 'em 100%.

I don't see where this person said that they it was like a sporting event or a game.

 

[maycocksean]

I don't see where this person said that they it was like a sporting event or a game.

Be that as it may, that was the statement being referenced.

He also had three "rock on" smiley-face with devil horns icons (which for some reason didn't show up when I copied the quote). The attitude seemed to be similar to someone saying: GO LAKERS!!!!!

 

[A_Wanderer]

People of Arab countries, especially the Lebanese and Palestinians, have been held hostage for a long time in the name of "resisting Israel." Arab governments have been caught between political obligations and public opinion leading to more corruption in politics and economics. Forgetting the interests of their own countries the Hamas Movement and Hezbollah have gone to the extent of representing the interests of Iran and Syrian in their countries. These organizations have become the representatives of Syria and Iran without worrying about the consequences of their action.

Recently Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier and bombed Israeli settlements with locally manufactured missiles. Soon Hezbollah followed suit, kidnapping two Israeli soldiers. Both these organizations claimed they had kidnapped Israeli soldiers to exchange them for Arab prisoners who are being held in Israeli jails. The fact that Hamas and Hezbollah gave the same reason for kidnapping Israeli soldiers gives us a glimpse their agenda, which is similar to the one followed by Syria and Iran in their conflict with the United States.

While the people of Palestine and Lebanon are paying the price of this bloody conflict, the main players, who caused this conflict, are living in peace and asking for more oil from Arab countries to support the facade of resisting Israel. With the Palestinian Authority close to collapse and the Lebanese government beginning to give up responsibility for what is happening in its territory, Saudi Arabia has been forced to come out of its diplomatic routine and indirectly hold Hezbollah responsible for what is happening Lebanon.

Without mentioning Hezbollah by name Saudi Arabia blamed certain "elements" inside Lebanon for the violence with Israel and said "it is necessary to make a distinction between legitimate resistance and uncalculated adventures adopted by certain elements within Lebanon without the knowledge of legal Lebanese authorities." While reiterating its support for Palestinian and Lebanese resistance against Israeli occupation, Saudi Arabia has clearly said it is against irresponsible adventures undertaken by certain elements in the region without consulting the legal authorities putting all Arab nations at risk. The Kingdom has also said "these elements must take responsibility for their irresponsible actions and they alone should end the crisis created by them."

This angry response from Saudi Arabia has politically isolated Hezbollah and Hamas besides holding them responsible for their actions.

This attitude of Saudi Arabia, which has been doing all it can to protect the Arab world from Israeli aggression, is enough to unmask the adventurers, who have violated the rights of their own countries and tried put their people under the guardianship of foreign countries like Iran and Syria. A battle between supporters and opponents of these adventurers has begun, starting from Palestine to Tehran passing through Syria and Lebanon. This war was inevitable as the Lebanese government couldn’t bring Hezbollah within its authority and make it work for the interests of Lebanon. Similarly leader of the Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas has been unable to rein in the Hamas Movement.

Unfortunately we must admit that in such a war the only way to get rid of "these irregular phenomena" is what Israel is doing. The operations of Israel in Gaza and Lebanon are in the interest of people of Arab countries and the international community.

source

 

[A_Wanderer]

Bush Sends Kerry to Solve Israel-Hezbollah War
by Scott Ott

(2006-07-24) — After learning that the battle between Israel and Hezbollah could have been prevented if Sen. John Kerry, D-MA, had been the U.S. Commander in Chief, President George Bush today dispatched Sen. Kerry to the war-torn region to “get this thing solved.”

Sen. Kerry, a career Vietnam veteran, who told a political gathering in Detroit yesterday that “we must destroy Hezbollah” and that the president “has been absent on diplomacy“, said he would bring his own brand of “diplomatic destruction” to the terrorist group.

“Senator Kerry’s presence and intellect alone should bring a swift end to hostilities,” said Mr. Bush, who admitted that he, and the State Department, had “kind of put the Middle East thing on the back burner” while following televised coverage of the Tour de France bicycle race.

In related news, as hostilities along the Lebanon border approached the two-week mark, the crisis was officially added to the list of “bad things that would not have happened during a John Kerry presidency.”

link

 

[all_i_want]

They are being used as human shields, where does the burden of guilt go?

is this the length you'd go to justify the tragedy we see there? 'they were human shields'. i think it is a whole lot more likely that israel is just firing away their missiles indiscriminately than hezbollah using people as 'human shields'.

human shields? who the hell knows there was hezbollah presence in the location where this woman was injured? if they KNEW where hezbollah was, why havent they destroyed it after 2 WEEKS OF BOMBING? they dont know where hezbollah is, so how can you say these people were 'human shields' instead of just civilians trying to survive.

 

[STING2]

is this the length you'd go to justify the tragedy we see there? 'they were human shields'. i think it is a whole lot more likely that israel is just firing away their missiles indiscriminately than hezbollah using people as 'human shields'.

human shields? who the hell knows there was hezbollah presence in the location where this woman was injured? if they KNEW where hezbollah was, why havent they destroyed it after 2 WEEKS OF BOMBING? they dont know where hezbollah is, so how can you say these people were 'human shields' instead of just civilians trying to survive.

If Israel was firing indiscriminately into the Lebanon they could have killed over 300,000 people by now, not just 300! It does not serve Israel's interest to to fire its missiles and shells indiscriminately and cause more large numbers of civilian casualties.

WHY IS HEZBOLLAH FIRING ROCKETS FROM RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS? One should try answering that question before they accuse the Israely's of anything.

 

[Justin24]

The reason there are some many civilian casualties in Lebenon is because Hizbollah hides in the civilian population and the goes out saying look what israel has done.

 

[maycocksean]

The reason there are some many civilian casualties in Lebenon is because Hizbollah hides in the civilian population and the goes out saying look what israel has done.

This is true. It does, however, raise the question of whether Israel should continue to use it's heavy-handed approach in light of this. While I agree with Sting2 assertion that Israel could have killed more Lebanese civilians if they'd wanted to, I don't think that means that Israel could have taken a different approach. It's like saying, "Well, you know they could have used a nuclear missile to kill a fly." That still doesn't change the fact that using shotgun to kill a fly is still overkill.

Again, I think Israel is in a sense holding the whole nation of Lebanon responsible for the actions of Hezbollah and is moving forward with conventional-style warfare against the nation as a result. How else do you justify Israel bombing bridges, the airport etc?

 

[Justin24]

Well this is the Lebonese Governments fault for allowing this group to grow and become a political power in its country and for that they are paying for it. So when they show footage of dead Lebonese civilians I say nice going Lebenon for keeping Hizbolla around.
In fact this reminds me of what Somolia has become an anarchic nation where the central government is now to afraid to function because of Islamic extremists.