MERGED AGAIN: ...Is the Pope Next? + Pope John Paul II + JP2...+Pope John Paul Dead! - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-01-2005, 07:05 PM   #91
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,294
Local Time: 12:26 AM
I am a woman and a sometimes-lapsed Catholic with many, many reservations about the Pope, mainly in his later years. Certainly, there are things I disagree with, ranging from birth control to staunch homophobia - two things that have me lapsing every other day.

But I'd also like to comment on his personal influence on me and people like me.

I was born behind the Iron Curtain. We were supposedly atheist, people would get thrown into prison for attending church or being religious. You were kept from promotions, and could not openly celebrate religious feasts. My mother was a professor, so she had a "highly visible" government job, which meant when I received the sacrament of the first communion, I had to put my dress on in the car, and on the way back from church, change back to my regular jeans in the car so that none of our neighbours would see we were religious and report us, or my mother would not only lose her job, but have immense political trouble.

When the Pope spoke in Poland in 1979 and told the people they were free and they did not have to crawl on their bellies, that the rest of the free world was with them, that was something amazing for us.

I know that Americans and West Europeans, etc, cannot understand this, can't understand the promise of liberation, the notion that somebody out there encouraged our tiny glimmer of faith to live on. Hope is maybe the greatest of things, and everything changed in 1979 for Eastern Europe. Without TV coverage, without sanctioned news reports, everyone heard about the Pope in Warsaw and it meant something that you can never put into words.

What I do find disappointing is that he forgot that 90% of the faithful in those countries were women, in any church on any given day. Like the women who stood by Jesus, it was women in Communism who kept the faith and passed it onto their children. And so I am disappointed today that the Pope is so adamantly against ordaining them and that his views towards women are really not all that inspiring considering it was women who kept the faith in Jesus alive for all those decades, almost exclusively.

At the same time, I will always remember the man who promised millions of people not only spiritual, but personal freedom.

He will probably always stay a paradox to me, but I don't see him as wholly good or wholly bad.

I wish him a peaceful death. Farewell to a man who was extraordinary in so many regards.
__________________

__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 04-01-2005, 07:20 PM   #92
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:26 PM
Indeed.
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-01-2005, 07:34 PM   #93
Refugee
 
BostonAnne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 2,052
Local Time: 01:26 AM
anitram
__________________
BostonAnne is offline  
Old 04-01-2005, 08:08 PM   #94
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Jamila's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,454
Local Time: 11:26 PM
Although I did not always agree with the Pope's stance on certain issues (contraception, homosexuality, etc), I personally liked the man.

I thought that he did all that he could to open up the Catholic Church to people from various backgrounds and tried to reconcile with the other major religions around.

Plus, I will always remember his courageous stance AGAINST THE IRAQ WAR.

In all, Pope John Paul II did more good for our world than harm.

He's on his way Home now - that we will all be so fortunate.

Don't pray for him - pray for us.
__________________
Jamila is offline  
Old 04-01-2005, 08:14 PM   #95
War Child
 
mistyrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Where Life Is Worth Living
Posts: 587
Local Time: 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
I will not deny that he was definitely a good man who was on the right path of things but I have a problem with the whole "Pope" position.

Isn't the whole pomposity of the position, along with the way people seem to worship the ground he walks on, a complete aberration from true Christian teachings? Aren't christians suppossed to be humble and to worship only God? Whenever I see catholics kissing statues and praying to idols I cringe and wonder who taught them these things.

All of that aside, I do respect the man and the path he chose to live his life. Very admirable.

...I wonder if I can have the pair of sunglasses that Bono gave him now?
Well when you say "true Christian teachings" I'm not sure what you mean by that. The "pomposity of the position" is a Catholic thing. Not all sects of the Christian religion have statues, pray to the Holy Mother, confess to a priest, etc.
__________________
mistyrose is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:29 AM   #96
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,270
Local Time: 11:26 PM
I, too, don't agree with a lot of his beliefs, and I'm not a Catholic, either. But I was watching the news earlier this evening, and hearing his stories of travel...he was so kind to everyone he met, he talked to everybody imaginable-I think I heard something about him talking to some crew members somewhere in Denver or something. I think that's pretty cool, as he certainly didn't have to do that-especially considering the fact he got shot back in the 80s...could've soured him on visting people, but no, that wasn't the case. Like anitram said, he's a paradox of sorts. It's amazing he's hung on as long as he has with everything he's been through-hope his final hours are peaceful.

Angela
__________________
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:42 AM   #97
New Yorker
 
sallycinnamon78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,977
Local Time: 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
CNN is now reporting that the Vatican has denied that he died. I'm not Catholic, but I know many people who are and they're torn up about this and this back and forth crap isn't good for anyone.
I've been following this throughout the entire night. I've been to the BBC website, CNN, and various sources regualrly. At no point did I see any report that the Pope has died. Here's the latest from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4402323.stm

Pope John Paul II's poor health has deteriorated further, the Vatican has said, as Catholics around the world prepare for his approaching death.

No word has been heard for more than 12 hours on his condition, but a briefing has been scheduled for 0930GMT.

At the last update, his breathing was reportedly shallow, his blood pressure low and there were problems with both his heart and kidneys.

Thousands of people held an evening vigil in St Peter's Square.

Up to 70,000 attended past midnight, but numbers had dwindled to just a few hundred by the early hours.

"Stay with us. Don't leave us," the crowds chanted, many crying uncontrollably.

The Vatican made three statements on Friday, seemingly to prepare Catholics to expect the worst.

Unusually, it kept its press centre open all Friday night, but closed it at 0600 (0400 GMT) on Saturday, saying it would reopen at 0900.

Cardinals - who will elect a new pope after John Paul dies - are arriving in Rome from all over the world, the Italian media have reported.

The Pope's vicar general of Rome said the pontiff was already "at one" with Jesus Christ.

He "already sees and touches the Lord," Cardinal Camillo Ruini told a packed Mass in Rome's St John Lateran cathedral.

"I invite all Romans and all Italians to intensify their prayers for him," he said.

"We want to be close to him in this hour through the same loving closeness with which John Paul II has accompanied us for nearly 27 years."

Another senior clergyman, Angelo Comastri, told about 30,000 people gathered in St Peter's Square: "This evening or this night, Christ opens the door to the Pope."

Sacrament given

Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said on Friday evening that the Pope's overall condition had been "notably compromised".

But he added that the Pope was visibly participating in prayers around his sickbed.


Krakow people pay tribute to the Pope they called their own

In pictures

The Pope's condition deteriorated on Thursday after he developed a urinary tract infection that later brought on "septic shock and a cardio-circulatory collapse".

He was given the Catholic sacrament for the sick and dying - called the Anointing of the Sick.

But the Pope decided not to return to Rome's Gemelli hospital.

He was being treated in his apartment by a team of four top consultants and his private doctor Renato Buzzonetti.

Homeland homage

Catholics around the world have been praying for the Pope.

In the Pope's homeland, Poland, churches have been packed with worshippers throughout the day.

The Archbishop of Krakow, Franciszek Macharski - a long-time friend of the Pope - told his audience: "Do not feel shame at showing your emotion and at shedding tears."

US President George W Bush and his wife Laura had joined those around the world who were praying for him, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

Soon he will carry his cross into eternity and we will have to study hard the footprints he has left
David Power
Tipperary, Ireland
__________________
sallycinnamon78 is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:55 AM   #98
New Yorker
 
sallycinnamon78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,977
Local Time: 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 4EVRU2
I stand corrected. But it's pretty touch and go. Rather intense. and sad, and still shocking. I think many still hope there is a chance he might hang on a while longer...
If the poor man is suffering so badly... in my opinion, it's unfair of any of us to wish for his pain to be prolonged (yes, I know that's not what you said at all, or what you meant - but that would be the case, nonetheless, were he to remain here in this state). It's a natural reaction to hope for a miracle... but we need to let him go. Easier said than done I know.

Hope that doesn't offend you. I just feel he should be at peace.

I'm not a Catholic, nor am I one to immediately forget a person's faults purely because they are no longer with us. Still, I have a great deal of respect for the Pope and his overall strength of character, his kindness and his humanitarianism., and it is horrendous to see such siffering.
__________________
sallycinnamon78 is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 01:49 AM   #99
New Yorker
 
AvsGirl41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 2,948
Local Time: 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
I, too, don't agree with a lot of his beliefs, and I'm not a Catholic, either. But I was watching the news earlier this evening, and hearing his stories of travel...he was so kind to everyone he met, he talked to everybody imaginable-I think I heard something about him talking to some crew members somewhere in Denver or something. I think that's pretty cool, as he certainly didn't have to do that-especially considering the fact he got shot back in the 80s...could've soured him on visting people, but no, that wasn't the case. Like anitram said, he's a paradox of sorts. It's amazing he's hung on as long as he has with everything he's been through-hope his final hours are peaceful.
(And to anitram)

The photos from Poland this morning have been really moving. It is easy to forget what an impact he had there and it is difficult to reconcile such inspiration with some of his other actions. It really is a paradox. And I'm not even Catholic, but I find myself torn between admiration and confusion.

I can vouch for the Denver story. My dad is a Denver police officer and had to work security outside the cathedral where the Pope was staying. He mentioned this morning that he got to meet him and and shook his hand--he left the Catholic Church years before and he said it still was "electric."

I remember at the time they always had security problems because he would just randomly step outside to start greeting people or to take his dog for a walk. I remember my dad had to run across the street from getting coffee at McDonalds because here he came, out for a walk-a-bout, his assistants chasing after him. It *is* surprising that he would be so confident and warm towards ordinary people. Many public figures could learn a thing or two from that.
__________________
AvsGirl41 is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 07:57 AM   #100
Acrobat
 
BorderGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under A Blood Red Texas Sky
Posts: 418
Local Time: 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by mistyrose


Well when you say "true Christian teachings" I'm not sure what you mean by that. The "pomposity of the position" is a Catholic thing. Not all sects of the Christian religion have statues, pray to the Holy Mother, confess to a priest, etc.
Do you display photos of your loved ones in your home?
These = statues.
Do you think about those who have gone before you, a mother , a father, a friend, learn from their lessons?
This ='s praying to the holy Mother for guidance. She understands suffering, and never asked her son to step down from his job to matter how hard.
Do you 'confess' your heart to your friends and seek advice from them, and then feel better afterwards?
This ='s confessing to a priest.
And the good part is they don't go off and gossip to everybody afterwards.
These are our Catholic traditions.
How is this 'un-Christian' or pompous?
You have much to learn young Jedi....
If you are another denomination you need to know that these Catholic traditions are part of your own 'Christain history'.
Please don't judge what you don't bother to learn, much less respect. +++
__________________
BorderGirl is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 08:15 AM   #101
Acrobat
 
BorderGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under A Blood Red Texas Sky
Posts: 418
Local Time: 12:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by anitram
[B]
"What I do find disappointing is that he forgot that 90% of the faithful in those countries were women, in any church on any given day. Like the women who stood by Jesus, it was women in Communism who kept the faith and passed it onto their children. And so I am disappointed today that the Pope is so adamantly against ordaining them and that his views towards women are really not all that inspiring considering it was women who kept the faith in Jesus alive for all those decades, almost exclusively."

+++
The Church doesn't say that one job is better than the other. Society has done that.
The Church does not elevate certain jobs like the priesthood as the end all for women to achieve.
It holds the many 'jobs': Altar Servers, Readers, Eucharisitic Ministers, etc. as being equally important and necessary.
And treats each duty with equal dignity.
__________________
BorderGirl is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 08:37 AM   #102
New Yorker
 
sallycinnamon78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,977
Local Time: 06:26 AM
The song When I Look at The World always reminded me of the Pope. I got that feeling the first time I heard it, and have ever since.

Think of you and your holy book, when the rest of us choke...
__________________
sallycinnamon78 is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 09:30 AM   #103
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Nostradamus
You need to get laid... Hah.. Damn.. Those green cards can be a bitch can't they?
Fuck off. I mean, really. Grab your fist, locate your ass, insert accordingly.

I've reported your harrassment to the moderating staff. I hope you're banned.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 09:43 AM   #104
Refugee
 
Anthony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,538
Local Time: 05:26 AM
Nostradamus - that was completely out of line, and, unless you are going to apologise, I suggest you refrain from addressing any further posts to Melon. Such harrassment is not needed anywhere, let alone in such a sensitive thread.

Ant.
__________________
Razors pain you; Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give;
Gas smells awful; You might as well live.

Dorothy Parker, 'Resumé'
Anthony is offline  
Old 04-02-2005, 09:48 AM   #105
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl


Do you display photos of your loved ones in your home?
These = statues.
Do you think about those who have gone before you, a mother , a father, a friend, learn from their lessons?
This ='s praying to the holy Mother for guidance. She understands suffering, and never asked her son to step down from his job to matter how hard.
Do you 'confess' your heart to your friends and seek advice from them, and then feel better afterwards?
This ='s confessing to a priest.
And the good part is they don't go off and gossip to everybody afterwards.
These are our Catholic traditions.
How is this 'un-Christian' or pompous?
You have much to learn young Jedi....
If you are another denomination you need to know that these Catholic traditions are part of your own 'Christain history'.
Please don't judge what you don't bother to learn, much less respect. +++

I could talk here and show you how this makes little sense.

God clearly said several times in the Bible that he doesn't want idols and he will not accept people worshiping (kiss, pray to) statues of stone.

Why would you pray to virgin Mary when she was a mortal like you and me? Jesus said "No one comes to the Father if not through me" and he is one with the Father (Holy Trinity). Why would you pray to others (saints and virgins) when you can take matters directly with God?

The Vatican has a lot of money and the Pope is being treated like a King. (Even though I respect and admire the way he has used this "power") I don't see how this coincides with Jesus' humble teachings to serve others and to give others your robe and your tunic.

Also, when you confess yourselves you are told to pray a certain number of prayers, right? It seems odd that Catholics see prayer as a form of punishment.

When someone dies, Catholics go to mass for nine days to pray for their soul. Isn't that what Jesus died for? To cleanse our sins? To ensure and give us eternal life? What difference would it make to go to mass nine days?

Martin Luther had plenty of reasons to begin the reform.

I apologize if I took this conversation in a different direction than was intended.
__________________

__________________
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com